Essex

HC Deb 01 March 1962 vol 654 cc1523-4

31. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Minister of Education What is the approximate number and percentage of grammar school pupils in the administrative county of Essex, and in the Whole country, who are annually considered either to be unsuitable for such type of education or have been transferred to other types of schools and what is, in both cases, the approximate number of secondary modern school pupils who are annually transferred to grammar schools.

Sir D. Eccles

The local education authority tell me that between one and two per cent. of thirteen-year-old pupils in Essex have in recent years been transferred from modern to grammar or technical schools. Transfers in the reverse direction are negligible. No comparable statistics are collected for the country as a whole.

Mr. Sorensen

Does the absence of any figures showing how many have been transferred from grammar schools to other types of schools mean that a large number are unsuitable for this kind of education? Is there not abundant evidence to indicate that the 11-plus examination is both unsuitable and deceptive as a means of determining the type of future education children should undergo? In these circumstances, what is being done about it?

Sir D. Eccles

The arrangements for transfer are entirely within the discretion of the local authority. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that promotion is much easier than demotion. I do not think it is fair to say that the 11-plus examination is working unfairly.

Mr. Sorensen

It is. There are a certain number—quite a large number in some cases—of boys and girls in grammar schools who would be better off in other kinds of secondary education, and vice versa.

Mrs. White

Before the Minister replies to my hon. Friend, may I ask him if he agrees that one of the arguments for comprehensive education is that such transfers downwards in that system do not create difficulties for children who would be very much better off not in a grammar school?

Sir D. Eccles

I have no figures to show how many children might be eligible for demotion, but I should think the number is very small.

32. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Minister of Education if he will consult representatives of both the education committees and appropriate professional organisations in the geographical County of Essex on the most suitable form of local government re-organisation in respect of education.

Sir D. Eccles

I am always ready to consider views which may be put to me on this topic by such persons and bodies.

Mr. Sorensen

Is not that a rather negative and passive reply? Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that, as education has very special characteristics which might be affected by local government reorganisation, he should himself initiate consultations with all bodies intimately concerned with education so that he, having received representations from them, could bring to bear some influence on the Minister now engaged in local government reorganisation in the Greater London area?

Sir D. Eccles

I have looked at the evidence which all these bodies gave to the Herbert Committee. I assume that they would stand by what they said. If they wish to write to me on the recommendations of the Committee, modified by the White Paper, I am ready to hear what they have to say.

Mr. Lagden

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that, if he does see representatives of the Essex Education Committee, he will, at the same time, see elected representatives as well as officials?

Sir D. Eccles

If they have any views, I would much prefer them to write to me in the first instance.