§ 15. Mr. Boydenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the National Debt increased by £194,155,558 between 31st March, 1959, and 31st March, 1960, and 934 by a further £174,484,792 between 1990 and 1961.
§ Sir E. BoyleI am unable to recognise the hon. Member's figures. The National Debt increased by £356 million in 1959–60, and by a further £519 million in 1960–61, as stated in the Returns relating to the National Debt, which were presented to the House as White Papers (Cmnd. 1221 and 1574). The hon. Member will find details of the principal factors giving rise to these changes in these returns.
§ Mr. BoydenIf the hon. Member cannot recognise those figures, perhaps he can recognise some simple ones. Will he agree that the National Debt has risen £2,000 million since 1951 and has gone up each year substantially, except for two years, since that date? What is he doing about that, and why is he so tolerant about the situation?
§ Sir E. BoyleOne simple fact that I certainly recognise is that in the years in question a major element was the borrowing requirement of the nationalised industries, £574 million and £386 million, respectively. As the hon. Member and the House will be well aware, we have had an extremely low borrowing requirement in each of the last two Budgets.
§ Mr. BoydenSurely the hon. Gentleman is not claiming that the £2,000 million over the last eleven years can be attributed to the nationalised industries?
§ Sir E. BoyleAll I am saying is that hon. Members opposite greatly underrate the effects of the borrowing of the nationalised industries, both on the increase in the National Debt in this period and also on the difficulties which we had in managing the monetary system.
§ Mr. CallaghanAre not the Government responsible for this? Is it not their liability and their responsibility? Does not the Financial Secretary recall the Prime Minister warning the country in 1959 that a vote for the Labour Government would mean an expenditure of an extra £1,000 million in the lifetime of the next Parliament? 935 Does he realise that he has already exceeded that figure in 31 years? May I congratulate him on that record?
§ Sir E. BoyleThe hon. Gentleman need not be so rhetorical about this. Certainly we recognise responsibility. It is because of the figures which I have given to the House that my right hon. and learned Friend has introduced two successive Budgets, in 1961 and 1962, which have reduced the borrowing requirements to a very small figure indeed, as the House is well aware.
§ 16. Mr. Boydenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the management expenses of the National Debt during the three years ended 31st March, 1961, have been two to three times the cost of management in the year ended 31st March, 1958; and what was the cost of management and expenses for the last financial year.
§ Sir E. BoyleThe management expenses of the National Debt, as defined by statute, include cash payments on conversion of stocks and Premium Savings Bonds prize money. These two items account for the substantial increase to which the hon. Member refers. The cost of management in the year ending 31st March, 1962, was £33.6 million. This included the expenses of the Post Office in managing National Savings securities which hitherto had been borne on the Post Office Vote.
§ Mr. BoydenPerhaps the Financial Secretary can recognise that this is 2½ times what it was the year before. Is he quite satisfied with the fact that the management expenses and the interest on the National Debt are now running at approximately £1,000 million?
§ Sir E. BoyleThe hon. Member ought to recognise that the size of this item is not affected by interest rates and, secondly, that it is hardly unreasonable since even in 1961–62 the charge was less than per cent. of the total debt outstanding. I do not think that that is a figure to be ashamed of.