HC Deb 01 June 1962 vol 660 cc1814-20

3.4 p.m.

Mr. John C. Bidgood (Bury and Radcliffe)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 26, at the end to insert: (3) For the purposes of the provisions mentioned in paragraphs (b) and (c) of subsection (1) of this section, where any payment falls to be made by way of a hiring charge for a gaming machine within the meaning of section seventeen of the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960, or for any equipment for holding a lottery or gaming at any entertainment, then, if, but only if, the amount of that charge falls to be determined wholly or partly by reference to, or to some part of, the amounts hazarded at lotteries or gaming by means of that or some other such machine or equipment, that payment shall be held to be an application of the stakes hazarded or proceeds of the entertainment, as the case may require, for purposes of private gain; and accordingly any reference in those provisions to expenses shall not include a reference to any such hiring charge falling to be so determined. I had intended to go into some detail on the Amendment, but I feel that I must have some consideration for those who are interested in any business which may be following. On Second Reading some of my hon. Friends voiced criticisms with regard to possible loopholes which might exist if the Bill were not amended. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) said, in essence, that there might be individual gain under the cloak of the society for an individual who would be protected because essentially the society was not run for private gain but for the benefit of the members.

My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) gave a specific instance of how that might arise when he drew attention to the fact that it was quite conceivable that the owner of a number of gaming machines might install them in a number of clubs, become a member of each of the clubs, and get his cut out of the profits of the machines by virtue of the fact that those machines were run for the benefit of the society as a whole. It was felt, both on Second Reading and in Committee, that for the Bill to be as watertight as it is possible for any Bill concerning lotteries and gaming to be, consideration should be given to the constructive suggestions made by my hon. Friends.

The Amendment points out that if a club has an arrangement with the supplier of a gaming machine whereby the supplier receives a proportion of the takings by way of hire, it might be held that he had supplied the machine for a purpose calculated to benefit the society as a whole. Therefore, under subsection (1) of the Clause, the payment of a proportion of the proceeds to him is not to be held to be applied for purposes of private gain and, consequently, is lawful.

The Amendment makes it clear that it is lawful to pay the supplier of the machine a rent at a fixed rate not determined by reference to the takings. This is by no means dealt with satisfactorily by Section 17 of the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960. The result of the Amendment will be, I hope, to put it beyond all doubt that it is lawful for a club to pay a fixed rental for the hire of the machine, but not a rental which is dependent upon the amount of takings.

The Amendment also deals similarly with any hiring charge which may be made for equipment which carries out any other of the activities dealt with in the statutory provisions listed in subsection (1)—for example, side-shows at a fête. A good analogy was given in Committee by my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State, Home Office when he referred to the hiring of a marquee for a garden party or some such similar function. I thank my hon. Friends for their constructive criticism which has necessitated the Amendment.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Renton)

My advice to the House is to accept the Amendment. I should make it clear that this is my advice, because the point was first raised on Second Reading and I said that I would consider it. I wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) and told him that it would seem that the Bill as it stood was adequate to deal with the situation which he had in mind. My hon. Friend persisted, however, and was supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson), and little by little—or, perhaps I should say, Eric by Eric—they managed to achieve their end and to get the Bill clarified in the way now proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Bidgood).

We should pay our tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Aldershot and for Blackley for the persistence they have shown. They have demonstrated most clearly that one cannot take enough care in these matters of drafting, especially concerning the law relating to lotteries and gaming. I, like my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe, am deeply grateful to my hon. Friends.

Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)

It is clear from what has been said by the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Bidgood) and by the Minister that we cannot be too careful in any Bill which seeks to make amendments in the law relating to lotteries and gaming.

For many years, it has been recognised that this is a notoriously difficult part of the law with which to deal with absolute precision. Therefore, as this was a point which was not considered in any detail on Second Reading and emerged as a point of substance only in Committee, it is important that before we finish with the Report stage, the House should be clear concerning this new provision that is now sought to be incorporated in the Bill.

I agree that in view of decisions which have been announced in the courts, it is necessary to deal with this matter. I should like the Minister to confirm that I am right in thinking that the effect of the Amendment will be to legalise any agreement for the hiring of a gaming machine to a society or club which is protected by these Acts provided that the rental paid to the hirer is a fixed straight rental, but that if there is any arrangement, direct or indirect, whereby the hirer gets either in substitution for, Or in addition to, a straight fixed rental some other sum that is related to the amount spent or earned—

Mr. Renton

Hazarded.

Mr. Fletcher

—hazarded, spent, gained or earned by the machine, that arrangement will be totally illegal.

3.15 p.m.

Mr. Renton

If I may have the leave of the House to speak again, I would tell the hon. Member that that is so. I should, however, add that it is not the only criterion whether gaming is lawful. The other conditions specified in Section 17 of the 1960 Act have also to be complied with, but as far as the method of payment is concerned, the hon. Member has correctly stated the position.

Mr. Eric Johnson (Manchester, Blackley)

May I say very briefly that I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Bidgood) for the way in which he has amended the Bill. May I also say, on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington), who is unable to be here today, that he shares that gratitude. He has told me that he is satisfied from his knowledge of the law that the flaw as we saw it has been put right.

I, as a layman, with regrettably little knowledge of the law, but perhaps an eye for the main chance in matters of this kind, am equally satisfied that the loophole has been closed. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend.

Dr. Alan Glyn (Clapham)

Those who were worried in the earlier stages of the Bill are grateful for the full explanation which has been given of the Amendment, which, as far as I can see, removes the great difficulty which would have arisen if clubs and genuine institutions had wished to install these machines. I am sure that the House is grateful for the Amendment rectifying the position.

Amendment agreed to.

3.17 p.m.

Mr. Bidgood

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

On Second Reading, I referred to the fact that the Press had jocularly described the Bill as the "Bingo Bill", and I pointed out that it covered much wider fields than the playing of bingo. It is interesting that virtually the only reference to bingo which has been made during the various processes of the Bill were made by my hon. and learned Friend on Second Reading, that nobody else has referred to the game since and that the points which have been made and which necessitated an Amendment were to do with gaming machines and not with the playing of the game of bingo.

I should like again to pay tribute to the realistic attitude which has been adopted by the Churches Council on Gambling with reference to the Bill. They believe it to be a sound Bill which will carry out what Parliament originally intended under the three Acts of Parliament mentioned in the Bill. I believe that it closes a serious gap and will enable the various institutions covered by the Bill to carry out their activities within the law.

We all know, as has been mentioned this afternoon, how difficult it is to legislate on gaming and lotteries, because there are always so many people anxious to find a way of defeating what we in Parliament intend. This Bill is no exception because, as my hon. and learned Friend said, it has not been an easy Bill to draft. Even the Amendment which has been included this afternoon was not an easy Amendment to draft. But I feel that we have got as near as we possibly can to closing the loophole which undoubtedly existed.

I thank my hon. Friends for their constructive criticism of the Bill and my hon. and learned Friend for his kind advice throughout.

3.19 p.m.

Mr. Fletcher

May I say two or three words in support of the Bill? May I first observe that the Press are perhaps not altogether to be criticised for having referred to this as the "Bingo Bill". The word "bingo" has come to cover a multitude of sins and to be used in a generic as well as a specific sense. Whatever some of us may think of those who are bingo addicts, I do not regard bingo as the most serious or morally harmful of various forms of betting, gaming and lotteries.

It is important to emphasise that we are in no way extending the existing opportunities or those originally intended by Parliament for betting and gaming. We are merely seeking to change a decision of the House of Lords on a highly technical point reached by a majority of three Law Lords against a minority of two dissenting Law Lords on the construction of the words "private gain".

It is now being asserted that if bingo or any other lottery or game to which the Act applies is played within the limits allowed by law by any working men's club or sporting or athletic club, or any other genuine members' club, the fact that part of the ultimate proceeds go to the club does not in any way disentitle the club from saying that the bingo or other game or gaming machine used to provide funds for the club is lawful. It is not to be regarded as a contribution to the private gain or benefit of the club members.

It is for that reason that the Church Council on Gambling has been sensible enough to say—as hon. Members on this side of the House say—that it has no objection to the Bill. We support its Third Reading.

3.20 p.m.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Renton)

As this has been referred to as a "Bingo Bill" it is right, as a Home Office Minister, that I should once more point out that the easement—to the extent that it is an easement—which the Bill contains will not benefit proprietary clubs. Therefore, as I said in our earlier proceedings, there is no need to fear that it will lead to an increase in bingo. It will not facilitate the extension of commercial bingo in any way.

That is the only point of substance which it would be appropriate for me to make in the Third Reading debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Bidgood) upon the skill with which he has piloted the Bill through the House and for the open-mindedness that he has shown to the most constructive suggestions made to him—especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) and my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson). I hope that the Bill will have a speedy passage in another place.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.