Programmes (Hansard, 24 July 1962)

§ 17. Dr. D. Johnson
asked the Postmaster-General when he received a communication from the hon. Member for Carlisle about the content of British Broadcasting Corporation programmes; and if he will give a direction to the British Broadcasting Corporation under the Licence and Agreement not to broadcast programmes containing epithets such as those contained in the communication.

§ Mr. Bevins
I received my ban. Friend's letter on 10th July. The powers of direction contained in Clause 15 (4) of the B.B.C. Licence and Agreement were not designed to enable me to control the detailed content of B.B.C. programmes, and I regret that I cannot agree to use them for the purpose my hon. Friend has in mind.

§ Dr. Johnson
Despite what my right hon. Friend has said, is he aware that this is in fact the only allegation of this kind I have received from my constituents about any broadcasting? In the event of his appointing any future commission in connection with broadcasting, may I ask him to include one of my constituents with a view to presenting a balanced point of view?

§ Mr. Bevins
I will consider that idea, but I have also discussed this with the B.B.C. and the Corporation tells me that 1254 it does not deliberately set out to shock or offend people. Very often the cam-plaint is the other way round. The B.B.C. is sorry if the use of these expletives has given offence to some of my horn. Friend's constituents. The same expletives were also used on a recorded television programme, and they came from the lips of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

§ Mr. F. Noel-Baker
The Minister and the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson) are indulging in a very esoteric discussion. May we be told what it is all about? Is it not in the public interest when allegations of this kind are made about broadcasts that we should know what the allegation is, what the programme is, and what they are talking about?

§ Mr. Bevins
I should be very glad to tell the hon. Gentleman what the characters were talking about, but I am afraid that Mr. Speaker would rule me out of order if I did.

§ Dr. Johnson
In the light of what the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) has said, I think my hon. Friend will agree that I did send him the actual instance, and if he would kindly return the letter to me I should be very glad to have it.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I do not understand this—it is neither a Question nor something prompted by a matter of information not given to the Minister.

§ Mr. Bellenger
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Ordinarily, this would rest where you want it to rest, but the Postmaster-General has used the name of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. Surely, as my right hon. Friend is not here, the Postmaster-General will at least publish in HANSARD what the complaint is?

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not know what this treasured word was—[Laughter.]—but I do not propose to stick my neck out by forcing unparliamentary language in obedience to a point of order because I do not know what it was.

§ 27. Mr. V. Yates
asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the evidence, contained in the annual report of the Chief Commissioner of Police for 1255 the Metropolis, that violence on television contributes largely to increased criminal activity, he will exercise his powers under Section 15 (4) of the Licence and Agreement of the British Broadcasting Corporation and Section 9 (2) of the Television Act, 1954, to require the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority to refrain from showing programmes containing violence and brutality.

§ Mr. Bevins
No, Sir. The powers of direction contained in the B.B.C. Licence and Agreement and in the Television Act were not designed to enable me to control the detailed content of B.B.C. and I.T.A. programmes. The Government are, however, concerned to improve the standards of television programmes and recognise that programmes should, in particular, include less violence. As stated in the White Paper on Broadcasting, we shall discuss these matters with the B.B.C. and I.T.A.

§ Mr. Yates
I appreciate that Answer, but the Commissioner of Police has stated that it is not only his opinion but, he says, the belief of every policeman that the daily presentation of violence in dramatic form has largely contributed to the increase in crime. How long are we to wait before some action is taken to minimise this?

§ Mr. Bevins
With respect, the hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. The Chief Commissioner of Police for the Metropolitan area did not say that at all. He referred to one possible contributory cause of the increase in crime and then referred to television, but made it perfectly dear that there was no evidence in support of this assertion. The amount of crime and violence shown on television is one thing and the effect that it has on society is quite another. That is why I think that the whole House welcomed the initiative of the then Home Secretary in setting up a study group or committee to look into this whole matter.

§ Mr. Wade
Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that while it is difficult 'to prove the effect of a particular programme on the viewing public, the degree of violence and brutality contributes to the climate in which our young people are growing up? Surely he should take this report very seriously and also his duties under the Act.

§ Mr. Bevins
Of course, the hon. Gentleman may well be right, and it is precisely on account of that possibility that we have stated in the White Paper that in the Government's view there is an excess of violence and crime on television at the present time, and we propose to discuss this with the authorities to try to improve the position.

§ Mr. Yates
I hope that I did not misrepresent the Commissioner of Police, but the words he uses in the Report are: … but it is my belief and that I think of all policemen, that the daily presentation of crime in dramatic form … has largely contributed to the increase in crime. That is on page 10 of the Report.

§ Mr. Bevins
I have read the Report very fully, and what I have said is, I Chink, a fair representation of what the Chief Commissioner stated.

§ 28. Mr. Mayhew
asked the Post-master-General when he proposes to start discussions with the Independent Television Authority on the problems of violence and triviality in television programmes and on the natural break, in accordance with paragraphs 40 and 65 of Command Paper No. 1770.

§ Mr. Bevins
I hope to start discussions with the broadcasting authorities on the standards of television programmes, and with the I.T.A. on natural breaks, very soon after the forthcoming debate in this House.

§ Mr. Mayhew
While sharing the Minister's anxiety not to intervene with the content of the programmes either of B.B.C. or of I.T.A., is he aware that there is public feeling that these discussions should take place and that he should take a firm line on them, and will he say when he intends to report to the House on this and in what form?

§ Mr. Bevins
I have already said that these discussions will take place at an early date, and I always take a firm line over everything.