HC Deb 18 July 1962 vol 663 cc430-2

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

45. Mr. EMRYS HUGHES

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will move to refer to the Select Committee on Procedure the question of whether hon. Members who wished to abstain on any motion should have the right to have their abstention recorded in HANSARD.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod)

As this Question has been on the Order Paper for a number of weeks, I should like, with permission, to answer it now.

The Answer is, "No, Sir."

Mr. Hughes

While realising that that Answer justifies the long delay, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he will pay some attention to this matter? There might be occasions in the future, as there have been recently, when right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to abstain from voting and have their abstentions recorded in HANSARD. Why should not that be done? Surely the right hon. Gentleman knows that the Government frequently abstain in the United Nations. Why should not hon. Members have the same privilege?

Mr. Macleod

We have a different system of recording votes. I do not think that there is any suggestion of a demand for this change—

Dame Irene Ward

Yes there is.

Mr. Macleod

—and it is not easy to see how it could be implemented, because it would, presumably, mean having something like a third Lobby.

Mr. Bellenger

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is as great a demand as my hon. Friend suggests from right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House for abstentions to be recorded?

Mr. Macleod

I hope not.

Dame Irene Ward

I should like to ask my right hon. Friend why he does not refer this to the Select Committee on Procedure? I think that it would be a progressive move if, from time to time, we made slight alterations in our Parliamentary procedure. I cannot see any objection to considering this matter. In fact, I would be grateful if I could occasionally register my abstentions.

Mr. Macleod

It is true that we now have a Select Committee on Procedure. There are a number of matters which are being considered for reference to it. If there were a general demand for such a matter as is raised in this Question to be referred to the Select Committee, I think that that would be the place for it to be considered. But, as I said, as far as I am aware there is no such general desire in the House.

Mr. S. Silverman

While appreciating the difficulties to which the Leader of the House referred, is this really a good reason for not asking the Select Committee to look at the matter? If it found that it was unworkable, it would no doubt so report, but ought this to be decided negatively in advance and without consideration?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there really is all the difference in the world between Members of Parliament who do not vote in Divisions because they are not here, because they are away on other business, or because they desire to be somewhere else, and Members of Parliament refraining from taking part in a Division as a political act, as it very often is? Would not it be an improvement in our procedure if we had a method whereby hon. Members who, on a particular occasion, were not ready to make up their minds could have an opportunity of saying quite clearly, "For the moment we are neither in favour of nor against it, and our absence from the Division Lobby is not due to neglect of our Parliamentary duties "?

Mr. Macleod

I am aware that there is a serious point here, and I am prepared to answer it in that sense. I think that the right forum to discuss this point, if it should be discussed, is the Select Committee on Procedure, which has been set up by the House. I will make some general inquires into the matter, and if there is such a desire, of which, as I said, I am not at the moment aware, I will consider putting it on the list.