§ 1. Mr. Dugdaleasked the Minister of Labour how many British employers have asked for A vouchers to sponsor the entry of immigrants under the Immigration Act.
§ The Minister of Labour (Mr. John Hare)418 applications for vouchers had been received from employers up to 3rd July.
§ Mr. DugdaleIs that the sort of number which the Minister expected, or is it in excess, or less?
§ Mr. HareIt is difficult to say, because we have to judge how we go on this problem. It is very difficult to give any concrete answer to the hon. Gentleman at this stage, as we have only just started.
§ Mr. ChapmanHave there been consultations between the Ministry and employers, particularly with the nationalised industries, to see whether on some co-ordinated basis they could recruit 1318 together in areas such as the West Indies for the labour that is needed?
§ Mr. HareEvery vacancy is checked by my Department. We are working closely with the British Transport Commission and other organisations which are carrying out recruiting schemes. If employers wish my assistance in this connection, as I have said before in this House, I shall be ready to consider any proposals that they are prepared to put forward.
§ 2. Mr. Gurdenasked the Minister of Labour how many applications he has received for permits from Commonwealth immigrants; and how many have been granted.
§ 31. Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Labour how many applications he has received for permits for Commonwealth immigrants; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. HareUp to 3rd July, 2,817 applications for employment vouchers had been received from Commonwealth countries, and 2471 vouchers had been issued.
§ Mr. GurdenIs my right hon. Friend aware that the recruiting which has been going on may be unnecessary? Surely it would be better to fill the vacancies from those unemployed persons on the registers at employment exchanges and that, if possible, they should be brought from Birmingham rather than from overseas?
§ Mr. HareI have another Question to answer regarding recruitment. Perhaps I could deal with that point later.
§ Mr. LiptonIn granting these permits, does the Minister advise applicants about the parts of the country in which not only would it be possible to get a job but also to find reasonable housing accommodation? In other words, does the right hon. Gentleman try to divert people from areas which a re grossly overcrowded instead of persuading them to go to areas where there are jobs and no accommodation?
§ Mr. HareAreas where there are problems regarding housing are well known. The concept of the Act was not to prohibit immigration but to control it.
§ Mr. FisherIs it the position that—probably because of their anxiety to get to this country before the door was 1319 shut—a great many people came here on 1st July; and perhaps the numbers were rather exaggerated and that therefore correspondingly, possibly, my right hon. Friend may have to reduce the numbers a little in the immediate future? But, in the long term and looking at it later in the year, would he envisage being able to allow in a somewhat larger number than at the moment? Can my right hon. Friend give the House some indication of the numbers of immigrants, starting, say, from the beginning of 1963, that he would envisage admitting?
§ Mr. HareMy hon. Friend is right in saying that a large number of people did come in at the last moment before the recent legislation was enacted. So far I have not been in a position of having to refuse many applicants because the numbers have been fairly small. I think that it would be most unwise for the Government or the House to adopt a set attitude as to how this problem should be handled in future, when the number of applications may rise. We have to see what is the situation from month to month and how many of these people can be comfortably and reasonably absorbed.
§ Mr. CleaverTo what extent is my right hon. Friend taking housing difficulties into account before issuing permits?
§ Mr. HareNaturally, I have to take into consideration not only difficulties regarding housing but a number of other social problems which would affect the well-being of people who come to this country.
§ Mr. DugdaleIn answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton), the Minister said that the new Act was designed to control immigration, but what he and many others are concerned about is the control of immigrants when they arrive here so that they may go to the right places instead of the wrong ones, which is quite a different question.
§ Mr. HareI entirely see the point made by the right hon. Member. Obviously the difficulty of people going to certain areas is well known, but we do not seek to direct people. I think the right hon. Member would find himself in difficulties if he were to pursue that point too far.
§ 11. Mr. Dugdaleasked the Minister of Labour what is the quota of unskilled immigrants from each country of the Commonwealth allowed into the United Kingdom under the Immigration Act.
§ 18. Mr. Chapmanasked the Minister of Labour how many applications have so far been received for entry vouchers from intending Commonwealth immigrants who have no specified job arranged or special skill; how many have been issued; and what system of allocation of such vouchers is being used so as to share them among the Commonwealth countries most affected.
§ Mr. HareUp to 3rd July, 1,870 applications had been received from immigrants with no specific jab or special skill, and 1,620 vouchers had been issued. No quotas have been allotted to individual Commonwealth countries. I explained in the debate on the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill that vouchers would be issued to applicants with no specific job or special skill on the basis of first come, first served, and that is being done.
§ Mr. DugdaleAre neither official nor unofficial quotas being in any way operated? It would be as well to be perfectly clear on this point.
§ Mr. HareWe went into this in the debate. I see the right hon. Gentleman's point in favour of a quota system, but it would be very difficult to apply such a system fairly. I will give two examples. If the system were based on population, it would give an overwhelming advantage to India. If it were based on the number of immigrants before control operated, Pakistan would say that she was being penalised through the exercise of restraint at our request.
§ Mr. ChapmanDoes not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the difficulty? Once the figures reach the point where he has to stop people entering, Commonwealth countries, in the absence of any knowledge about how admissions are being shared out among themselves, will never know what to do about encouraging people to apply for entry vouchers. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that once he gets to the point of stopping people entering, he will have to let the Commonwealth 1321 know how he is sharing out the vouchers that he has available?
§ Mr. HareIt would be the greatest possible mistake to tie ourselves down at this stage to some rigid scheme for the distribution of vouchers when it is not so far necessary. We shall learn a lot as we go along. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is not an easy problem. I keep an open mind about it, but it would not be right at this juncture to tie ourselves down to what has been suggested.
§ 16. Mr. N. Pannellasked the Minister of Labour what is his policy in regard to the issue of labour permits under the Commonwealth Immigrants Act to labour recruited in the West Indies by the British Transport Commission.
§ Mr. HareEmployers wishing to bring Commonwealth citizens to this country for specific jobs may obtain employment vouchers for them on application to my Ministry. Men recruited by the British Transport Commission in the West Indies will therefore get vouchers.
§ Mr. PannellAs on 1st May this year, there were more than 35,000 Commonwealth immigrants unemployed in this country, that being more than 20 per cent. of the total unemployment in the main industrial areas, does not my right hon. Friend consider that the recruiting agencies are superfluous, and will he ensure that all possible means of recruiting immigrants in this country will be explored before permits are issued for others to come 4,000 miles from the West Indies?
§ Mr. HareI am sure that my hon. Friend will realise that the British Transport Commission is in the same position as any other employer and that under the terms of the Act it is open to it to nominate a person from the Commonwealth for a certain job. It would be unfair if it were treated in a different way from other employers. However, I have noted what my hon. Friend has said.
§ Mr. LiptonIs not this about the only category of immigrants coming to work here where the employer takes trouble to ensure that housing accommodation is available for them, and to 1322 that extent might this not provide an example for the Minister to follow in granting other permits?
§ Mr. HareIt is true that lodging arrangements are made. On the general point raised by my hon. Friend, we never proposed in the Bill to cut off immigration until all the unemployed were at work. We must keep a proper perspective in this matter.
§ 17. Mr. Chapmanasked the Minister of Labour up to what total vouchers for entry to Great Britain are issued to intending Commonwealth immigrants who are seeking work but do not come within the special categories of having a specified job arranged or a special skill and how this total is being calculated.
§ Mr. HareAt the moment, employment vouchers are being issued without restriction to Commonwealth immigrants who have no specific job or special skill. The Government are, of course, keeping this matter under very close review, in the light of the number of applications being received and 'the capacity of this country to absorb them.
§ Mr. ChapmanThat is not satisfactory. Is the Minister not aware, for example, of the dilemma facing the Government of Jamaica, who do not know whether to encourage a large number of people to make application for these vouchers lest they end up with a large number of very disappointed and irate people who think they are on the list but are not? Will he realise that he must, at some point, give some indication of the numbers involved so that Commonwealth Governments will know what to advise their people?
§ Mr. HareAgain, I think the tendency of hon. Members is to try to lay down at this stage rigid rules and principles which we are not in a position to do. It would be inadvisable, in fairness not only to the Governments but to the peoples of the territories concerned, for us to make judgments now. There can be no actual pressing need to do so until we have gained the experience we will get from the number of applications we shall receive in the coming months.
§ Mr. Ronald Bellrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerI called the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell).
§ Mr. FellI am sorry, because I rather hoped that my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) had been called. Has my right hon. Friend worked out what effect the regrettable possibility of our joining the Common Market would have on the number of people from the Commonwealth he would be able to allow to enter this country?
§ Mr. HareThat is a hypothetical question. I should be delighted if my hon. Friend would care to put down a question on that subject, although I do not think it would be very easy to give him an answer.
§ Mr. Ronald BellWill my right hon. Friend remember that the main purpose of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act was to restrict this immigration and not to stimulate recruiting in the overseas territories to which it refers? Will he also bear in mind the fact that there are some people who would be very glad to see the administration of the Act breaking down through intensive recruitment overseas?
§ Mr. HareI do not see any danger of the latter event happening. I have noted the views that have been expressed by hon. Members on this matter.
§ 21. Mr. N. Pannellasked the Minister of Labour what was the number of Commonwealth immigrants unemployed in Great Britain at 30th June, 1962, or the latest available date.
§ Mr. PannellIn view of these continuing high numbers, does not my right hon. Friend consider that it is quite wrong to issue labour permits for unskilled labour before the unskilled labour at present unemployed in this country has been absorbed?
§ Mr. HareThese figures are high, but considering the large number of additional Commonwealth immigrants who came in, so to speak, in order to be here before the Act was implemented, it is interesting to note that the number of unemployed dropped by about 550 in June as compared with May. I have told the House, both today and in the 1324 debate, that we have to watch this with the greatest possible care. We must consider the employment prospects and other social conditions which will enable us to absorb these people in a way which will be reasonable to them as newcomers to this country. At the same time we must not place too great a strain on our social services here.
§ Sir C. OsborneWill my right hon. Friend bear in mind the complaints that have just been made on behalf of Scotland and the fears of increased unemployment? Will he also bear in mind the complaints that have been voiced about the fears of the north-east of England and Merseyside? Does he not think that it is unwise to allow more and more unskilled people to come in when so many of our own people are in fear of losing their jobs?
§ Mr. HareI can only repeat what I have said. Of course, we all must have regard to the number of Commonwealth immigrants unemployed and the employment prospects in this country. I made it clear during the passage of the Act that we are not prepared to cut off immigration until all those unemployed are at work.