HC Deb 09 July 1962 vol 662 cc954-8
16. Mr. John Hall

asked the Minister of Aviation what representations he has made to the International Civil Aviation Organisation about the introduction of a standard international air navigation system following the recommendation of the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations that the Decca system HARCO be tested for use in this field.

Mr. Woodhouse

Arrangements are now being made by the Eurocontrol Association to test whether HARCO satisfies the Eurocontol specification of an area coverage system. It would be premature to make any approaches to the International Civil Aviation Organisation pending the outcome of these tests.

Mr. Hall

Is my hon. Friend aware that the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations was well aware a the fact that Eurocontrol was carrying out an investigation of the system when the International Federation made its own investigation, and recommended that the International Civil Aviation Organisation should carry out its own tests now, because it was thought essential from the point of view of air safety? Will not my hon. Friend at least support those recommendations in the interests of air safety, because it is an urgent matter and one of great interest to the country?

Mr. Woodhouse

I am aware of the resolution passed by the organisation—which, I suppose, we must pronounce "IFALPA"—but the fact is that I.C.A.O. does not conduct tests and, in any case, it has taken a decision on standardisation which remains valid until 1975. However, my right hon. Friend has been in touch with B.A.L.P.A.—the British component of the International Federation—which is aware of what we are doing in seeking to get HARCO tested with Eurocontrol, and has agreed that this is the best way to attempt to approach standardisation on a larger scale.

Mr. Hall

But is not my hon. Friend aware that the original decision taken by the International Civil Aviation Organisation is now under question, and that there is some doubt whether that organisation was right to take its decision. Is it not time, therefore, to press for a reopening of the whole matter?

Mr. Woodhouse

It is quite possible that the time will come, before the present standardisation runs out, to press for a reconsideration, but not before HARCO has been fully tested by use with Eurocontrol. If it were to be approved and adopted by Eurocontrol, that would automatically entail reopening the case with I.C.A.O.

17. Dr. Bennett

asked the Minister of Aviation what conclusions he has reached on the future employment of Dectra, following the success of its trials by the Aircraft Armament and Experimental Unit at Boscombe Down.

Mr. Woodhouse

No conclusion has yet been reached. Further development of Dectra is necessary before the system could be put forward for adoption as a standard aid.

Dr. Bennett

As this scheme has been operating and has been checked and used to high degrees of accuracy for some five years, can my hon. Friend say how much longer he will take to get ahead with it so that we may be able to compete with the Americans, who are working hard to overhaul us?

Mr. Woodhouse

It depends to some extent on how fast the Decca Company is able to complete the programme of development. The conclusion from the tests so far is that Dectra is not sufficiently developed for the purposes for which it is intended.

Mr. Lee

Will the Parliamentary Secretary make it quite clear that we are concerned that the best types of instruments shall be in standard use, and that we are not happy in the least if heavy economic power is to be the determining factor rather than the accuracy of the instruments?

Mr. Woodhouse

I share that view with the hon. Gentleman. I have no grounds to think that heavy economic power determines the question with regard to either HARCO or Dectra.

21. Dr. Bennett

asked the Minister of Aviation what success he has lately enjoyed in securing the acceptance of British systems of aerial navigation as against their foreign rivals.

Mr. Woodhouse

There has been no opportunity of securing the acceptance of a British system since 1959.

Dr. Bennett

Was not 1959 rather a clear demonstration of the British trumpet sounding a most uncertain note, so that only the Americans prepared for the battle? Will my hon. Friend do his best in the forthcoming negotiations to give rather stronger support to this country's manufacturers than has been given hitherto?

Mr. Woodhouse

I would not accept that the decision in 1959 was due to pusillanimity on the part of the British Government, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall in the future, as we have in the past, do everything that is reasonably possible to ensure that decisions on navigational aids are taken on the merits of the various products and not on political grounds.

Mr. John Hall

Is it not a fact that the decision of 1959 was taken on considerations other than those purely concerned with safety in the air, and, as I said earlier, is this not the time again to raise the whole matter?

Mr. Woodhouse

I have explained why this is not the moment to raise the whole matter again. It would be better to wait until HARCO has passed its tests with Eurocontrol. The decision taken in 1959 was, as the House has been told by my right hon. Friend's predecessor, one which we very much regretted, but it is impossible for us to break up an international organisation because we regret one of its decisions.

24. Commander Courtney

asked the Minister of Aviation what request he has received for assistance from Aeroflot in connection with the proposed adoption by the Soviet authorities of the Dectra system in conjunction with the North Atlantic traffic control.

Mr. Woodhouse

None, Sir.

Commander Courtney

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that great interest has been taken for some years past by the Soviet authorities in the Decca Dectra system? Does he appreciate that a decision is imminent and is likely to be taken shortly at high level in Russia? If this decision goes the right way, and we all hope that it will, does my hon. Friend—notwithstanding the earlier reply he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett)—not think it a little invidious that the Russians should adopt, on technical grounds alone, a British system of navigation when our own Ministry is so conspicuously lacking in giving the support we all expect for the system?

Mr. Woodhouse

That supplementary question sounded like a series of hypotheses. I cannot answer for a decision of the Russians about which we have received no information at all. I am aware that they have expressed interest in Dectra to the company, and if we are asked for our help in promoting a sale to the Soviet Union we shall of course give it