HC Deb 09 July 1962 vol 662 cc965-6
37. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will consider combining the old-age pension and National Assistance books to avoid embarrassing pensioners who dislike showing that they have two books and are receiving National Assistance.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

This suggestion has often been considered. It has the practical disadvantage that whenever the National Assistance order book has to be withdrawn for amendment the pensioner would be unable to cash his retirement pension. I would add that there are many people apart from recipients of National Assistance who present more than one order book for payment at post offices.

Mr. Allaun

Does the Minister agree that there are very many old-age pensioners in real need of National Assistance but who do not apply for it for the reason given in the Question, even if the Minister thinks that it is a case of mistaken pride that they do not like showing two books in the post office? Surely it is not beyond his wit to devise some way of overcoming any administrative difficulty involved?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have no reason to believe that the obligation to present two books—which is shared by a very large number of people who draw, for example, family allowances, war pensions and industrial injury benefits—has anything to do with the matter. The hon. Gentleman will know that a little time ago, to deal with any difficulty over the presentation of books, we took the words "National Assistance" off the cover. That was a practical measure. I honestly do not think that the hon. Gentleman's present proposal would really help.

Mr. Allaun

I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that there is a slight difference between the National Assistance book and other kinds of books. Whilst he and I may not think it wrong to apply for National Assistance, lots of people think it slightly shameful and therefore they do not like their neighbours who go in the post office to know about this. Could he not overcome this difficulty?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not think that a neighbour can spot out of a pile of books that many people bring in that one is a National Assistance book, when it has not even got the words "National Assistance" on it.