HC Deb 02 July 1962 vol 662 cc20-2
20. Sir E. Errington

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will give the reasons for the large increase in fees for renewing pilots' licences as outlined in the Civil Information Circular No. 43/1962.

27. Mr. Brockway

asked the Minister of Aviation what increase in the cost of a pilot's licence has been imposed; and what consultations took place with the trade unions concerned.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. C. M. Woodhouse)

These increases are intended to reduce the loss to the Exchequer which the issue and renewal of pilots' licences involve. The present fees are set out in the information circular to which the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) refers. The specific fees were not the subject of consultation, but substantial increases were forecast in the Command Paper "Aviation Safety" which was presented to the House on 16th April.

Sir E. Errington

Does not my hon. Friend realise how great these increases are? The basic increase is from £1 12s. 6d. to £5 10s. 0d. Will he reconsider the matter?

Mr. Woodhouse

I appreciate that these are very serious increases, but I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind that for some years we have conducted the service of examining and issuing licences at a substantial loss to the Treasury. One of the consequences has been that far too many pilots have presented themselves for examination unprepared. We do not believe that this is a satisfactory situation.

Mr. Brockway

Is it not the case that in correspondence with me the hon. Gentleman has said that one of the reasons is to prevent an excessive entry for the examinations? Would it not be possible to charge an entrance fee for these examinations rather than this increase of more than 300 per cent. in the cost of the licence?

Mr. Woodhouse

I do not recall using the exact expression "excessive entry". What we are aiming to do is to make sure that any pilot who presents himself for examination does so fully prepared. I do not follow in what way an entry fee would differ from our present system.

Mr. Burden

Will my hon. Friend ask his right hon. Friend to have another look at this? This is an increase of more than 300 per cent.—an enormous increase. At least, it should not have been undertaken without previous consultation with the British Air Line Pilots' Association. Does my hon. Friend not appreciate that these constant rises in the public sector are irritating and annoy- ing, not only to members of the public, but also to Members of this House?

Mr. Woodhouse

I must repudiate my hon. Friend's remark about constant rises. There has been no rise in these fees since 1958, and they are still low in relation to the cost to the Treasury of providing the service. As I have said, there was no consultation with the British Air Line Pilots' Association. We knew very well what its reaction was bound to be, but we forwarded to the Association a copy of the White Paper before it was published. That White Paper contained a forecast of increases and the British Air Line Pilots' Association did not then indicate, and has not subsequently indicated, that it felt that it should be consulted.

Mr. Lee

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that this is a fantastically high increase at one go? Now that he has heard the opinions of hon. Members, on both sides, would he not agree to ask the Pilots' Association to meet the Ministry and to hear its representations? Certainly, if the Association has not made representations to the Minister, it has made them to many of us. I am sure that it would be the feeling of the House that instead of rather disgracefully ignoring a bona fide trade union of this type, it would be a good thing if, even now, the Minister agreed to meat the Association and to postpone the application of these increases until that is done?

Mr. Woodhouse

I agree that the increases are high, but not that they are fantastically high, as the hon. Member suggests. My right hon. Friend is, of course, always ready to meet the Association if it wishes to meet him, but I cannot give any undertaking that the increases, which are already in effect, will be withdrawn.

Mr. Brockway

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I will raise this matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.

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