§ 22. Mr. Wainwrightasked the Postmaster-General what are the national gross maximum weekly wage rates of cleaners, doorkeepers, liftmen and handymen at wireless stations under his control.
§ Miss Pike£8 16s. a week. The rates in outer and inner London are greater by 10s. and £1, respectively. This is the same as is paid to non-industrial male cleaners in the Civil Service generally.
§ Mr. WainwrightDoes not the hon. Lady think that those wages are ridiculously low? In view of the fact that the wage pause is preventing an immediate increase in the wages of these people, would she consider, with her right hon. Friend, contacting the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister by radio to make certain that the wages pause and the conditions attached to it are removed so that negotiations and wages can take place?
§ Miss PikeThe hon. Gentleman probably knows that we await the Pay Research Unit surveys. In the last survey in 1957 we found that the cleaners were getting a higher rate than was general in the country. Since then there have been two increases, one in 1958 and one in January, 1961. We are anxious to make certain that they have the just treatment which we all want.
§ Mr. W. R. WilliamsIs not this the core of the whole dispute which is taking place now? How can the hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend face the fact that there are men and women in the Post Office Service receiving amounts in wages which make it difficult for them to exist under present conditions? Is not it about time that something was done and the Postmaster-General accepted his responsibility towards people paid so little, especially having regard to the comparisons with similar grades in industry?
§ Miss PikeIf that situation is such, it will be seen in the Pay Research Unit's reports, which are coming out very shortly.
§ 24. Mr. Randallasked the Postmaster-General, in determining that the increasingly higher rates of pay in manufacturing and other industries should not be a factor affecting the average wages of workers in his Department, what consideration he gave to the effect of this decision on the recruiting and retaining of staff.
§ Mr. BevinsThe rates of pay outside the Post Office that I ought to take into account for the purpose of fair comparisons will soon become apparent as we have the Civil Service Pay Research Units surveys.
The union has compared increases in the weekly wage rates of postmen with increases in hourly earnings in manufacturing industry. That I think is wrong. As a matter of fact, the increase in hourly rates of pay for postmen since April, 1956, ranges from 25 per cent. to 34 per cent. according to locality, while the corresponding figure for men in manufacturing industry is 22½ per cent.
There is no evidence that the recruitment or the retention of staff is affected by comparative rates of pay. Last year recruitment was far in excess of wastage.
§ Mr. RandallIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that I do not have to confirm with him the dissatisfaction felt about recruitment? Has he seen the speech made by the Assistant Postmaster-General in Leicester last November in which the hon. Lady said that:
Outside workers were receiving very high wages. The best "—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Verbatim quotation is out of order in a question.
§ Mr. RandallThe hon. Lady referred to the good conditions and best possible wages which were a problem for the Post Office in getting recruitment.
§ Mr. BevinsI can only reply that during 1961 the number of full-time telephonists increased by over 5,000 and that of full-time postmen by over 3.000. That hardly indicates that the Post Office is being unfair to its staff.
§ Mr. RandallIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have in my hand thirteen large cities and small towns in this country? [Laughter.] I apologise. I have statistics relating to thirteen large towns and cities where there are problems in regard to recruitment—Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leicester—all over the country.
§ Mr. BevinsThat may well be true, but that is a problem not merely for the Post Office but for every industrial organisation throughout the country.