HC Deb 23 January 1962 vol 652 cc12-5
21. Sir R. Pilkington

asked the Postmaster-General what estimate he has made of the effect upon the national economy by the Post Office workers' policy of work-to-rule.

Mr. Bevins

I regret that work-to-rule has brought about some deterioration of Post Office services. My aim has been to keep this to a minimum and, while some businesses have been affected, I do not think that there has been any significant effect on the national economy as a whole.

Sir R. Pilkington

While most people regret the methods chosen by the Post Office workers, is my right hon. Friend aware that the public are very grateful indeed for the efforts made to carry on the service?

Mr. W. R. Williams

Surely the Postmaster-General cannot accept all the implications of that supplementary question? Is he aware that many people amongst the Post Office workers and others are satisfied that if he himself had not been so stubborn and intractable over this issue there would have been possible a compromise means of coming to some interim settlement of these disputes between the Union of Post Office Workers and the Post Office Engineering Union, and that there is a general feeling in the country that he has been sitting back and has not been active enough?

Mr. Bevins

First, I should like to say that I am indeed grateful to the public and to the business community in particular for the forbearance that they have shown in the last three weeks. As to my attitude to this claim, I have always sought to avoid provocation. I have at all times sought to be reasonable. But, having said that, I have also sought to be firm and I shall continue to be firm.

22. Mr. Swingler

asked the Postmaster-General what is his estimate of the increased expenditure to date in overtime payments, employment of temporary staff, and diversion of mails, resulting from his dispute with the trade unions.

Mr. Bevins

About £¼ million.

Mr. Swingler

There is a lot of noise in the Chamber. Did I gather that the figure is £¼ million?

Mr. Bevins

indicated assent.

Mr. Swingler

Is it not absolutely ridiculous, from the point of view of economy, that the Postmaster-General is spending more money on maintaining a less efficient service in the Post Office entirely due to the Government's obstinate refusal to discuss wages in a reasonable manner?

Mr. Bevins

No, the hon. Gentleman takes far too parochial a view. A quarter of a million pounds, or even ten times that amount, is really a row of beans compared with the damage to the national economy that my submission to pressure might involve.

Mr. W. R. Williams

Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has denied the unions concerned the right to negotiate on the disputes between the various departments and themselves? He is seeking to force them to arbitration on conditions that he himself is imposing, and, in fact, he is acting precisely in the same way towards Post Office workers as his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has been trying to do with regard to the transport workers.

Mr. Bevins

No, Sir. The claim of the union of Post Office workers, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, was based on comparisons with all outside manufacturing industries. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because that is not the basis upon which Civil Service pay is determined. It is determined on the basis of fair comparisons with outside employment. Therefore, I took the view that the claim was not established. The basis of fair comparisons, which is the accepted method of determining Civil Service pay, is at present being worked out by the Pay Research Unit. I have said repeatedly that once that information is available I shall be prepared to negotiate, but that if the union is not prepared so to wait, then I will be willing to join with it in an application for arbitration. The union is opposed to both of these courses. What it is insisting upon is an interim payment in advance of the end of the pause, and that is something to which I cannot agree.

Mr. W. R. Williams

I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to be fair with the House on a dispute of this sort. I sincerely hope that, in response to what I am about to ask him, he will issue a White Paper reproducing the correspondence and the notes relating to all the agreed discussions that have taken place with the respective unions, in order that this House can itself assess the relative values of the arguments of the Postmaster-General and the unions. If the right hon. Gentleman does that, will he also give us an opportunity to debate the whole issue in this House?

Mr. Bevins

I think it would be a most unusual course to issue a White Paper while a dispute is still in progress, but I shall be content to discuss that with the hon. Gentleman at the end of these proceedings.

23. Mr. Swingler

asked the Postmaster-General what is his estimate of the loss of revenue to date from cancellation of parcel post and other measures resulting from his dispute with the trade unions.

Mr. Bevins

I estimate the loss of revenue on posts at about £¾ million, but of course this will be partially offset by increased revenue from telephones.

Mr. Swingler

Is this another row of beans? Is it not absolutely clear that sooner or later the Postmaster-General has got to negotiate wages with the postal workers? In the interests of the national economy and of most people in the country, and in order to avoid this wastage, ought it not to be sooner rather than later?

Mr. Bevins

It may well be that the time will presently come when we shall be able to resume discussions, but what I have been trying to make clear is that those discussions cannot be resumed while industrial action of this sort is in progress or on terms dictated to me by the trade unions concerned.