HC Deb 12 February 1962 vol 653 cc888-91
3. Mr. Hector Hughes

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why statistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas; and if he will take steps to obtain them.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Because records of our 5½ million retirement pensioners are held centrally. Great expense and delay would be involved in breaking up the figures in relation to particular areas in which pensioners reside, and in keeping them up-to-date as pensioners move. The answer to the last part of the Question is, therefore, No, Sir.

Mr. Hughes

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that in a recent Answer to me he admitted that there was a very serious gap in his information services with regard to the matter referred to in my Question? Will he look into this again with a view to seeing that the fullest possible information is available to old-age pensioners and to the other people affected by that gap?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not think that that Answer of mine agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman that there was a serious gap because the figures available about the numbers of pensioners do not coincide with Parliamentary constituencies.

7. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will study the experience of two clinics in London and Scotland, details of which have been sent to him, regarding the under-nourishment of many old-age pensioners; and if he will institute a national inquiry into the matter.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have seen with interest reports on these two clinics at Twickenham and Rutherglen, which deal with the general physical and mental health of the old. There is nothing in them, however, to suggest that existing sources of information on nutrition are inadequate.

Mr. Allaun

Is it not clear from the experience of these clinics that the pension of £2 17s. 6d. is so low as to cause under-nourishment and ill-health to many elderly people? Should not the basic pension be sufficient at least to provide enough to eat?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member may know that the report made in respect of the Rutherglen clinic specifically stated that malnutrition was not a problem of any magnitude. Taken as a whole, I think that that is the inference to be drawn from both these clinics.

Mr. Allaun

The right hon. Gentleman has read the script. Is it not clear that half of the 300 people regularly attending the London clinic are suffering from under-nourishment because of lack of money? Is it not clear that when they are provided with a better diet, supplementary foods and so on, their health and whole bearing alter?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member is referring to the script of a certain broadcast to which he was good enough to draw my attention. The value of that broadcast is easily gauged when one recalls that in the course of it there was presented an old lady who was said to be an example of pride preventing an application for National Assistance but who, the National Assistance Board tells me, was much more sensible than the producer of the broadcast and had been drawing it for years.

Mr. Mendelson

Would not the Minister agree that food represents a much higher percentage of the total outlay of old-age pensioners than of the average member of the community? Does it not follow, therefore, that from time to time and at frequent intervals there should be a new survey to make quite certain that even the slightest change in the cost of living does not produce a serious situation for old-age pensioners? Will he look again at the need for a further inquiry?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member will be aware of the considerable sources of information which we have. There is the fact that in the course of a year the officers of the National Assistance Board pay no fewer than 6 million visits to peoples' homes, and the fact that a very careful survey, with a special category in respect of pensioner households, is produced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Mr. Ross

Have the right hon. Gentleman's sources of information on this question and the general circumstances of pensioners led him to the conclusion that we should be perfectly satisfied with the present rates of pension and National Assistance?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The Government will never be satisfied. As the hon. Member knows, it is part of our policy to see that pensioners share in the increasing prosperity which the sound economic measures of my right hon. and learned Friend will bring about.

Mr. Ross

Since he is never to be satisfied, does that mean that at the moment the right hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied? What will he do to remove that dissatisfaction?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

You will allow me, Mr. Speaker, to put it in the form of a quotation and, therefore, I hope, be in order— None of your damned Scottish metaphysics".

13. Miss Vickers

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance to what extent the policy set out in Command Paper No. 1626, paragraph 7, that the increased cost of living cannot in the present circumstances be regarded as providing a sound basis for an increase of wages and salaries, will affect the basis on which increases are given to retirement pensioners.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The factors affecting the decision as to what is the appropriate level for contributions and benefits under the National Insurance Scheme were fully set out in a reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Salford East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on 14th November, 1960.

Miss Vickers

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether consideration will be given to increases in pensions after 1st April? I think my right hon. Friend will agree with me that these pensioners have been very patient. As far as I understand, they have not brought any deputations to try to get increases. They have observed the pay pause. Can my right hon. Friend give them any hope for the future?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

My hon. Friend will be aware that the rate of retirement pension was raised as recently as last April to the highest level in real terms yet reached.

Dr. King

Is not the Minister aware that the rise in the cost of living and the increases in wages, profits and dividends since the last increase in old-age pensions justify him giving some increase to the old-age pensioners now?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am surprised at that suggestion by the hon. Gentleman, in the face of the fact that the level reached as recently as last April was the highest in real terms yet attained and that the level today is higher than at any time previous to that.

Mr. Houghton

What is more to the point is what are the Government's intentions towards retirement pensioners and other National Insurance beneficiaries in the next phase of the pay pause? Is the pension pause to come to an end when the pay pause comes to an end? What is the intermediate phase for pensioners in relation to the intermediate phase for wage and salary earners?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The Answer to which I referred my hon. Friend in my main Answer is clear as to the considerations affecting decisions on this matter.

Mr. Ross

That means, according to the Answer to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and which I have here, that the cost of living still remains the first factor to be considered.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The cost of living is certainly one of the factors to be considered with the others enumerated in the Answer with which providentially the hon. Gentleman has armed himself.