HC Deb 06 February 1962 vol 653 cc368-82

  1. 1. An immigration certificate may be issued to any Commonwealth citizen resident in any country within the Commonwealth—
    1. (1) in the case of a country mentioned in subsection (3) of section one of the British Nationality Act, 1948, by the High Commissioner in that country for Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, or
    2. (2) in the case of any other country by a person designnated by Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom.
  2. 2. An immigration certificate shall certify that the person to whom it refers is a person described in a current voucher issued under paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of section two of this Act or is otherwise qualified to be admitted into the United Kingdom and shall set out any conditions subject to which the person should be admitted.
  3. 369
  4. 3. A certificate shall be valid until it is cancelled by a notice in writing delivered to the person to whom it refers before he leaves the country in which it was issued:

Provided that if it appears to the Secretary of State that it has been obtained by misrepresentation it shall be deemed to be cancelled.

The Government intend to accept the spirit of that Amendment. It will not be necessary to put it in the Bill. It can be done by administrative means. Our contacts with countries overseas have shown that they would welcome it. I believe that, when we come to a later stage of the Bill, it will be possible to discuss the matter and do justice to the idea put forward by the hon. Member for Widnes.

The great advantage of the visa certificate is that a student will be able to obtain a certificate before leaving home. This will apply also to other types of intending traveller, and it will mean that their journeys will not be made in vain but they will know before they come here that they can get in. This is a constructive idea and the Government have been glad to consider it.

I wanted to mention it in relation to students particularly. An intending student, if he is in doubt about whether he will be acceptable after travelling here, will be able to obtain a certificate before leaving his own country. He will not come here "on spec", so to speak, but will be able to come and be certain that he will be accepted.

I have nothing further to add now on the Amendment with regard to students which I have moved. I wish to give time for comments to be made. I undertake again that we shall publish the draft instructions to immigration officers before the Report stage, and it will then honestly be seen that it will be very easy for anyone with a genuine course of study in mind to be accepted in this country. For the ones who are in doubt, a visa certificate will be obtainable in their country of origin before they leave for this country so that they may be certain of getting in.

Mr. Thorpe

If it is to be possible for a would-be student to obtain a visa in his country of origin, are we to take it that that principle of visa issue in the country of origin is to apply to students only or is now to be extended to other persons also who seek employment?

Mr. Butler

Yes, Sir; our idea is that it should be extended to other persons as well, to answer the question, "Is your journey really necessary?", so to speak. It will be very much easier for the intending immigrant to have this possibility. I have mentioned it on this Amendment because the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Widnes will not be reached this evening.

Mr. James MacColl (Widnes)

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out "a substantial."

In spite of the sweetener which the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to pass to me, I do not wish to be diverted from a consideration of this important education proposal into a discussion on the later Amendment to which he referred. One accepts and welcomes the Amendment he has moved for what it is worth. I can only express my astonishment that it is possible for the Government to produce and put in print a Bill containing no reference whatever to one of the most important contributions made by this country to the Commonwealth.

The Bill bears on its back the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary who is an architect of our education system and the name of the Leader of the House who is more intimately in touch with the new Commonwealth than, I suppose, anyone else on the Government side of the Committee. It is amazing that these two right hon. Gentlemen should have allowed the Bill completely to omit any reference to the position of students. Our only hope of preserving these countries for Western civilisation is that their citizens should be able to come here and absorb the ideas and thinking of this country. They depend upon this country for their education, for their technical knowledge, and so on. I have no time to develop the matter now. I can only say that I am astonished that we should have this strange repentance at the last moment.

On the details, I commend to the Government for consideration the new Clause providing for an advisory council to be established. This, I think, is the difficulty. The Home Office is to administer this business of letting people in and deciding whether they are bona fide students and whether they will have a reasonable education, and so on. We cannot expect an immigration officer sitting in a port, dealing with these things quickly, to understand the complicated problems of education, the contribution which this country can make to education, what facilities for it exist in other countries, and so on. It is essential that there should be a body of people supplying education in this country who know the needs of the Commonwealth and who can advise the right hon. Gentleman on what contribution can be made in education, for what kind of students places can be found and what places they should be found. I have not time to develop that point, but I ask the Government to brood on it between now and later stages of the Bill.

The other point which I wish to raise is on the Amendment in line 3 to leave out "a substantial". The purpose of it is to question the limits on people who come in for whole-time education, or more or less whole-time education, which we have had defined for the first time as fifteen hours. Fifteen hours does not sound a lot, but in fact it is a great deal of education when one tries to absorb it and to do a job at the same time. I wish particularly to emphasise that it would be a grave error to exclude from this country people who come here for part-time education and keep themselves by doing a job. It is very tidy and easy to have properly accredited full-time students approved by their own country and coming here with their country's blessing. It is administratively tidy and the sort of thing which may well please some Commonwealth Governments. But the kind of person we want to encourage is the one who has the "guts" to come here and say, "I have not the approval of my Government, but I have confidence in my ability to fight my way to the top, and I want to work and earn my living and educate myself". That kind of spirit which we have welcomed in this country and which has produced some of the finest people that we have in this country is the spirit that we wish to see encouraged in the Commonwealth.

I am therefore scared of something which will simply allow a smooth passage for the person who is officially accredited but which will not give the opportunity to what I might term the unofficial person to come over here.

Mr. Chapman

This is a rather crucial point. I understand that one-third of the Commonwealth students in our technical colleges are here to study for the G.C.E. Can my hon. Friend tell us whether many people will be excluded because they will not be having fifteen hours instruction for the G.C.E. in technical colleges? If so, it will be an enormous blow to students from the Commonwealth who come here to study for the G.C.E.

Mr. MacColl

I shall be happy to answer my hon. Friend as long as he does not go for me in the Lobby afterwards for not allowing him to take part in the debate before the Guillotine fell. There are many cases of people who have not the requisite paper qualifications but have come here with the intention of getting them. They should be encouraged. People who can absorb a technical or scientific training are required in the new Commonwealth, and everything should be done to encourage them.

I should like to make a quotation from a publication which I have never quoted before and which I may never quote again. It is East Africa and Rhodesia of 14th December, 1961. The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is more likely to be favourably referred to in it than I am, but I should like to quote something in the gossip column which I came across casually. It is stated: An African from Uganda, Mr. J. C. Muwonge-Mukasa, who had been employed as a salesman in the Kampala office of A. Baumann & Co., Ltd. has passed the qualifying examination of the Institute of Marketing and Sales Management. He came to London two years ago, and has since worked as a cashier, studying in his spare time. He has had no financial assistance by scholarship or otherwise, and in June next hopes to sit his final examination. He is thought to be the first African from East or Central Africa to take this course of study. That story is a fine and creditable one. It concerns the kind of man whom we should encourage. Therefore, I urge upon the Government the importance of not squeezing out that kind of initiative and desire to stand on one's own feet which, I should have thought, the party opposite would feel anxious to preserve.

Mr. Fletcher

I support the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl). I am glad that before the Guillotine falls, there has just been time to deal with this important subject. As my hon. Friend has said, it is monstrous that when the Bill was introduced there was no protection whatever for those who wanted to come over from the Commonwealth for purposes of study. It is only as a result of the protests made by hon. Members on this side during Second Reading that the Government have now belatedly put down their Amendment. We are grateful for it as it goes but, as my hon. Friend has said, it does not go nearly far enough.

I have before me a cutting from the Observer of recent date under the caption Immigration Bill will penalise technical students most. I do not think that before putting his Amendment in its limited form on the Order Paper, the Home Secretary consulted those who are most familiar with the needs and requirements of Commonwealth students. Had he consulted any of the heads of the London colleges of further education, he would have discovered that a great many Commonwealth students come over here expressly for the purpose of combining an occupation which gives them remuneration with devoting their spare time to part-time study. They cannot always attend a regular course. Sometimes they have to take correspondence courses.

Does the Home Secretary know, for example, that at Kennington College of Commerce, there are about 1,000, or about half the total, Commonwealth students? Does he know that none of them enrols for courses before reaching this country and that very few have either jobs of the sort that can be arranged in advance or sufficient private means on which to live? Does the Home Secretary know that for years a large number of Nigerians have been coming here? They do not arrange their course of study before they come, but when they come they find places and suitable courses. They make do with a patchwork of correspondence courses and part-time study, meantime taking casual jobs until they are able to pay for a more regular and longer period of full-time study.

The Home Secretary would be the first to agree that students ought not to be penalised because they are poor. There ought not to be provision which merely enables those students to come who can afford full-time education. We want to encourage students like those who have been coming here who manage to combine the earning of a livelihood with devoting their spare time to profitable and useful study in the sciences or in technology in one form or another, because they are the kind of individuals we want to encourage.

The object of my hon. Friend's Amendment to the proposed Amendment is to ensure that those students will not be discouraged by the Bill. Therefore, I hope that the Home Secretary will accept our Amendment. He would be doing a disservice to the Commonwealth and to students throughout the Commonwealth if it is rejected. It is monstrous that we do not have time to debate it at greater length. As it is, the Guillotine will fall on a large number of other vitally important Amendments that we want to put forward, but this one is illustrative of them all. It is only as a result of constant pressure from this side that we are able to introduce some sort of reasonable, practical Amendments to the Bill. We protest at the fact that under the Guillotine we shall be deprived of the opportunity of putting forward a large number of other Amendments of vital importance to the Commonwealth and to students. We have no opportunity of dealing with all the questions of health——

It being half-past Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Questions already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the words "a substantial" stand part of the proposed Amendment:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 248, Noes 170.

Division No. 66.] AYES [10.30 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Gilmour, Sir John Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Aitken, W. T. Glover, Sir Douglas Nabarro, Gerald
Allason, James Godber, J. B. Neave, Airey
Ashton, Sir Hubert Goodhart, Philip Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Atkins, Humphrey Goodhew, Victor Nicholson, Sir Godfrey
Barlow, Sir John Cough, Frederick Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard
Barter, John Grant, Rt. Hon. William Oakshott, Sir Hendrie
Batsford, Brian Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R. Osborn, John (Hallam)
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Green, Alan Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)
Berkeley, Humphry Gresham Cooke, R. Page, Graham (Crosby)
Biffen, John Gurden, Harold Page, John (Harrow, West)
Biggs-Davison, John Hall, John (Wycombe) Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)
Bingham, R. M. Hare, Rt. Hon. John Partridge, E.
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Harris, Reader (Heston) Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)
Bishop, F. P. Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Percival, Ian
Black, Sir Cyril Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Pike, Miss Mervyn
Bossom, Clive Hastings, Stephen Pitt, Miss Edith
Bourne-Arton, A. Hay, John Pitt, Percivall
Box, Donald Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. Hendry, Forbes Price, David (Eastleigh)
Boyle, Sir Edward Hicks Beach, Maj. W. Prior, J. M. L.
Braine, Bernard Hiley, Joseph Prior-Palmer, Brig, Sir Otho
Brewis, John Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe) Proudfoot, Wilfred
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col.Sir Walter Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Pym, Francis
Brooman-White, R. Hirst, Geoffrey Quennell, Miss J. M.
Brown, Alan (Tottenham) Hobson, John Ramsden, James
Browne, Percy (Torrington) Hocking, Philip N. Rawlinson, Peter
Bryan, Paul Holland, Philip Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin
Buck, Antony Hollingworth, John Rees, Hugh
Bullard, Denys Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John Rees-Davies, W. R.
Bullus, Wing Commander Eric Hopkins, Alan Renton, David
Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden) Hornby, R. P. Ridley, Hon. Nicholas
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John Robinson, Rt Hn Sir R. (B'pool, S.)
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Hughes-Young, Michael Roots, William
Cary, Sir Robert Hulbert, Sir Norman Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Channon, H. P. G. Hutchison, Michael Clark Russell, Ronald
Chataway, Christopher Iremonger, T. L. Scott-Hopkins, James
Chichester-Clark, R. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Sharples, Richard
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Jackson, John Shaw, M.
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) James, David Shepherd, William
Cleaver, Leonard Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn
Cole, Norman Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Skeet, T. H. H.
Collard, Richard Joseph, Sir Keith Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)
Cooke, Robert Kaberry, Sir Donald Smith, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Kerans, Cdr. J. S. Spearman, Sir Alexander
Corfield, F. V. Kerby, Capt. Henry Stanley, Hon. Richard
Costain, A. P. Kerr, Sir Hamilton Stevens, Geoffrey
Coulson, Michael Kershaw, Anthony Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Craddock, Sir Beresford Kirk, Peter Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm
Critchley, Julian Kitson, Timothy Storey, Sir Samuel
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver Leavey, J. A. Studholme, Sir Henry
Crowder, F. P. Leburn, Gilmour Talbot, John E.
Curran, Charles Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Tapsell, Peter
Currie, G. B. H. Linstead, Sir Hugh Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Dance, James Litchfield, Capt. John Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)
Deedes, W. F. Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield) Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)
de Ferranti, Basil Longbottom, Charles Teeling, Sir William
Digby, Simon Wingfield Loveys, Walter H. Temple, John M.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Doughty, Charles MacArthur, Ian Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Drayson, G. B. McLaren, Martin Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)
du Cann, Edward McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter
Duncan, Sir James Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin
Elliot, Capt' Walter (Carshalton) MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty) Tiley, Arhur (Bradford, W.)
Elliott, R.W.(Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.) McMaster, Stanley R. Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Emery, Peter Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon
Errington, Sir Eric Maginnis, John E. Turner, Colin
Farey-Jones, F. W. Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Finlay, Graeme Markham, Major Sir Frank Tweedsmuir, Lady
Fisher, Nigel Marshall, Douglas van Straubenzee, W. R.
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) Vane, W. M. F.
Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone) Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Vickers, Miss Joan
Freeth, Denzil Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Mills, Stratton Wakefield, Sir Waved (St. M'lebone)
Gammans, Lady Montgomery, Fergus Walder, David
Gardner, Edward More, Jasper (Ludlow) Walker, Peter
Gibson Watt, David Morgan, William Wall, Patrick
Ward, Dame Irene Wise, A. R. Worsley, Marcus
Webster, David Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Wells, John (Maidstone) Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard
Whitelaw, William Woodhouse, C. M, TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) Woodnutt, Mark Mr. Peel and
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Woollam, John Mr. Michael Hamilton.
NOES
Abse, Leo Hamilton, William (West Fife) Parker, John
Ainsley, William Hannan, William Pavitt, Laurence
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hart, Mrs. Judith Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Hayman, F. H. Peart, Frederick
Awbery, Stan Healey, Denis Pentland, Norman
Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.) Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis) Plummer, Sir Leslie
Beaney, Alan Herbison, Miss Margaret Prentice, R. E.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J, Hewitson, Capt. M. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Bence, Cyril Hill, J. (Midlothian) Probert, Arthur
Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Hilton, A. V. Randall, Harry
Benson, Sir George Holman, Percy Redhead, E. C.
Blyton, William Holt, Arthur Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Boardman, H. Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics. S.W.) Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) Hoy, James H. Ross, William
Bowles, Frank Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Boyden, James Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Skeffington, Arthur
Brockway, A. Fenner Hunter, A. E. Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Slater, Josph (Sedgefield)
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Hynd, John (Attercliffe) Small, William
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Chapman, Donald Janner, Sir Barnett Snow, Julian
Cliffe, Michael Jeger, George Sorensen, R. W.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Darling, George Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Spriggs, Leslie
Danes, Harold (Leek) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Steele, Thomas
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Stonehouse, John
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Kelley, Richard Stones, William
Deer, George Kenyon, Clifford Strachey, Rt. Hon. John
Delargy, Hugh King, Dr. Horace Swingler, Stephen
Dempsey, James Lawson, George Symonds, J. B.
Diamond, John Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Dodds, Norman Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)
Edelman, Maurice Loughlin, Charles Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Neas (Caerphilly) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Thorpe, Jeremy
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) McCann, John Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Edwards, Walter (Stepney) MacColl, James Wade, Donald
Evans, Albert McInnes, James Wainwright, Edwin
Fernynough, E. McKay, John (Wallsend) Warbey, William
Finch, Harold MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Watkins, Tudor
Fitch, Alan Manuel, A. C. Weitzman, David
Fletcher, Eric Mapp, Charles Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) Mason, Roy Whitlock, William
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mendelson, J.J. Wilkins, W. A.
Forman, J. C. Millan, Bruce Williams, D. J. (Neath)
Fraser, Thomas (Ha[...]ton) Milne, Edward Williams, LI. (Abertillery)
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh Mitchison, G. R. Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Galpern, Sir Myer Monslow, Walter Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn) Moody, A. S. Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)
Ginsburg, David Morris, John Winterbottom, R. E.
Gourlay, Harry Neal, Harold Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Grey, Charles Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Woof, Robert
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Oswald, Thomas
Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. Owen, Will TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) Padley, W. E. Mr. Short and Mr. Sydney Irving.
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Pargiter, G. A.

Proposed words there inserted.

The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at half-past Ten o'clock, including the Questions on Amendments, moved by a member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to Clause 2.

Amendments made: In page 2, leave out lines 35 to 37 and insert: and the power to admit subject to conditions under this section shall not be exercised in the case of any person who satisfies such an officer of the matters described in paragraph (a) of this subsection.

In page 2, line 38, leave out from beginning to "in" in line 39 and insert: Nothing in subsection (2) of this section shall prevent an immigration officer from refusing admission into the United Kingdom".

In page 3, line 7, leave out from "security" to end of line 9 and add: (3A) Nothing in this section shall prevent United Kingdom at any time when a condition an immigration officer from refusing admission into the United Kingdom in the case of any person in respect of whom a deportation order under Part II of this Act is in force. (3B) In this section "child" includes a step amended, child and an adopted child and, in relation to the mother, an illegitimate child; and for the purposes of this section a person shall be

deemed not to be ordinarily resident in the United kingdom at any time when a condition restricting the period for which he may remain there is in force under this section, whether that period has expired or not.

Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 245, Noes 170.