HC Deb 19 April 1962 vol 658 cc686-8
Q4. Mrs. Butler

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the new claim by official Soviet seismologists, made public on 11th April, that they have detected all nuclear explosions carried out abroad, on or under the earth, he will discuss immediately with President Kennedy the possibility of dropping the Western demand for inspection in concluding a nuclear test ban.

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. I have seen claims made by the Russians about the successes of their seismologists, but the opinion of our own experts is that it is not possible to detect and identify all underground nuclear tests by instruments alone. We have suggested to the Russians that their scientists should meet ours and exchange information, but the Russians have not responded.

Mrs. Butler

As there is agreement generally among seismologists on this, are not we now guilty of exposing the people of the world to death and disease from a renewal of tests because we are making an increasingly dubious technical point the justification for not concluding a treaty? Will the Prime Minister convey to President Kennedy the urgent need for an end to this power politics approach and the need for a break-through on the lines that the neutral nations have suggested to get an agreement with Russia?

The Prime Minister

I think that the hon. Lady is confusing two things. There is first the question of identification of an explosion, to discover whether it is likely to have been caused by natural or artificial causes. That can be done either—under the original treaty as the Russians accepted it—by instruments placed inside Soviet territory and correspondingly inside our territory, or, with a lesser degree of efficiency, by instruments outside. But wherever this occurs, as instruments can tell us only that there is something which may be one or the other, it is necessary to have verification on the spot of any doubtful incident, or one complained of.

Mr. H. Wilson

Would not it be a good idea, since Russia claims to have monitored all the American underground tests and not just the twenty-three publicly announced, for the Government to go one step further and ask the Russians to give a list of the times and dates of all the tests that they claim to have monitored, and set that list against what is known to the Americans? We can then see whether it is true, as the Russians claim, that it is possible to monitor all these tests. Secondly, will the Prime Minister endorse with his authority the statement that we have had from the Lord Privy Seal that the Government intend to make a serious examination of the proposals from the eight non-aligned countries, and, if we can be satisfied that this will result in adequate verification and check, that the Government will take that as a final proposal?

The Prime Minister

With regard to the second part, I will not anticipate the reply that I will make to Questions on the Order Paper which, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will answer after Questions. With regard to the first part, it was not very difficult to identify the tests, if they were the Nevada tests, because they were near the site which was known to have been used in the previous tests. There is very little seismic activity in the area and they were relatively big. It comes down to the point that, however one identifies, and of course there are hundreds of these incidents, one has to try to find out whether, because of the reactions, it is one that is likely to have been artificially created or naturally created. But when that is done, there must be verification on the spot to discover which it is.

Q5. Mr. A. Henderson

asked the Prime Minister whether he will propose to President Kennedy that verification of underground explosions under a test ban treaty should be carried out by an international body of scientists nominated by the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

The Prime Minister

The right hon. and learned Member's suggestion is very similar to the proposals put forward in Geneva by the eight non-aligned countries which are being closely considered. I am answering other Questions about these proposals later.