§ 7. Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the number of people over 70 who are not entitled to a retirement pension as they had no opportunity of being insured; how many of these are in receipt of National Assistance; whether he is satisfied that these people are not living in want; and whether he will investigate their position with a view to providing them with funds giving them security until their death.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI estimate that people over age 70 who are not receiving retirement pensions total some 650,000, of whom about 200,000 are receiving National Assistance, non-contributory old-age pensions, or both. I have no means of telling 7 how many of these persons had no opportunity of becoming insured either as voluntary contributors under the old schemes or as late-age entrants under the present National Insurance scheme. As regards the last two parts of the Question, Parliament has already made financial provision for all persons in need through the National Assistance scheme.
§ Sir B. JannerWill the Minister realise that this is a very exceptional case? About 300,000 of these people are over 80 years of age. Will the Minister take some steps to make it possible for them to have a proper allowance, because, as I understand it, very many of them are living in a state of penury? I think that this is a case in which the right hon. Gentleman might consider the matter to see what can be done generally.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs I said in my main Answer, Parliament has already made provision through the National Assistance schemes for dealing with hardship amongst this class of case, as amongst other classes of cases, and it is clear, in the case of the very old people to whom the hon. Gentleman refers, that the Assistance Board is particularly careful to see whether discretionary additions cannot be made.
§ Mr. HoughtonWill the right hon. Gentleman bear that reply in mind when he answers Question No. 14?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI will bear in mind the proper Answer to Question No. 14 when I come to Question No. 14.
§ 15. Mr. Thorpeasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons aged between 70 and 80, and 80 and upwards, respectively, are not in receipt of old-age pensions by reason of being non-contributory to the National Health Service; and what would be the cost to the Exchequer of giving pensions to each of these two groups of persons.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterNone, Sir. The National Health Service is not contributory and does not pay old-age pensions. If what the hon. Member has in mind is National Insurance retirement pensions, and on the further assumption that by the Exchequer he means the National Insurance Fund, the figures are £50 million and £40 million a year for the 8 370,000 and 280,000 people in the two groups, partially offset by a saving of £24 million to the Exchequer in payments by the National Assistance Board.
§ Mr. ThorpeNow that the Minister has so clearly understood the information I am seeking to elucidate, are we to assume that for these two categories of age groups the Government have no plans other than to throw them on to National Assistance? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these people are the real underdogs of the Welfare State? Has he no plans whatever to help them, apart from National Assistance?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe people in this category represent a wide variety of people, some of whom took a repayment of contributions as late age entrants and others of whom had the option of becoming voluntary contributors but decided not to do so. I cannot, therefore, see why one should make a distinction in the help given to them and a distinction in the help given to other unfortunate people in need through the National Assistance Board. I did not wholly like the tone of the hon. Gentleman in the use of the phrase "thrown on National Assistance", constituting, as it does, a serious reflection on the many people who quite properly exercise their right to draw National Assistance.
§ Mr. ThorpeWould the Minister not agree that when the Beveridge scheme was originally introduced it was hoped that National Assistance would be a real exception? Since so many people must now regularly draw National Assistance, would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that they are doing so because their pensions are inadequate and that this was never intended when the National Assistance arrangements were set up?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterTrue or not, that has absolutely nothing to do with the original Question, which related, as a matter of definition, to people without National Insurance pensions.