HC Deb 24 October 1961 vol 646 cc736-9
35. Mrs. Hart

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give details of the sentences and fines imposed at Dunoon Sheriff Court for offences in the recent anti-Polaris demonstrations at the Holy Loch.

39. Mr. Manuel

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will indicate the range of fines and sentences imposed at Dunoon Sheriff Court arising out of the disturbances in that area on 16th September, 1961.

Mr. Maclay

Three hundred and twenty-one persons have been dealt with by the court, and the cases against 29 others are still to be heard. Of the 321, one person was sentenced to three months imprisonment; 12 were fined £15, 193 were fined £10, and 99 were fined amounts varying between £7 and El; 13 persons were admonished and 3 were granted absolute discharges.

Mrs. Hart

Is the Secretary of State aware that these sentences contrast markedly with those which were imposed in other instances and that many people who thoroughly disapprove of civil disobedience as a means of political protest nevertheless feel that there is real injustice here which it is the duty of the Secretary of State to remedy?

Mr. Maclay

As the hon. Lady appreciates, it is for the criminal court to decide, after taking into account any maximum penalty prescribed by Statute and all the relevant circumstances in respect of both the offence and the offender, what penalty to impose on a person convicted before it. Any person aggrieved by the sentence imposed on him has a right of appeal to a higher court. I cannot comment on what happened in this case.

Mr. Manuel

Does not the Secretary of State think that he should indicate that these fines and sentences were excessive? Will he not leave his brief for a minute or two? Is he aware that these fines are live to ten times, and in some cases fifteen times, greater than those imposed in similar instances?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The Secretary of State is not responsible for the sentence and the hon. Member's supplementary question in that form is out of order.

Mr. Manuel

On a point of order. May I direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would indicate whether he thought that the penalties were excesive? I did not ask him to alter anything or to do anything.

Mr. Speaker

Inviting the Minister to express a view as to whether the sentences were excessive would be out of order, because there is no Ministerial responsibility for the sentences awarded. I am sure that the hon. Member follows that point.

Mr. Manuel

Would the Secretary of State on reflection agree that these fines and sentences were excessive and would he advise people not to use the big stick?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is the same point. I can understand another way in which the question could be asked which would not offend, but in that form it does offend.

Mr. Stodart

Can my right hon. Friend give any indication of the cost which the demonstration has been to the local authority in extra police pay?

Mr. Maclay

I have not the exact figure here but my impression is that it is about £4,000.

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is a different question.

Mr. Willis

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people think that these cases should not have been taken to the sheriff's court but to a lower court, in which case they would have been dealt with in a manner befitting the crime which had been committed, the penalties would have been very much lower and, incidentally, the fines would have gone towards Argyllshire County Council to help pay its costs?

Mr. Maclay

As the hon. Member appreciates, that is not a question for me.

Hon. Members

What about the Lord Advocate?

Mr. Shinwell rose

—

Mr. Maclay

If hon. Members will wait, I am trying to help the House.

Mr. Shinwell

It is no good getting annoyed with me.

Mr. Maclay

And no good the right hon. Gentleman getting annoyed with me.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I might become annoyed with both right hon. Gentlemen.

Mr. Hector Hughes

In how many of these cases were there appeals and with what results?

Mr. Maclay

In the case of those offenders who pleaded guilty when charged, I understand that there were no appeals, but at present two appeals are outstanding from among those who pleaded not guilty.

Mr. S. Silverman

Without associating myself with the more pejorative adjectives which some of my hon. Friends have used, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman agrees that these judicial officers, like other human beings, may sometimes act in the heat of the moment and do things which later they regret? Has not the right hon. Gentleman reserve power, in the advice which he may tender to the Crown about the Prerogative of mercy, to put right a situation which in the opinion of most ordinary people is rapidly becoming idiotic?

Mr. Maclay

The next Question deals more specifically with this point and I think that we ought to wait for it.

Mr. Lindsay

In view of the great harm which these demonstrators do in encouraging the Russians to think that we have no backbone, does not my right hon. Friend think that they got off very lightly indeed?