HC Deb 18 October 1961 vol 646 cc173-6
Mr. Strachey

(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware of the growing public concern over the recent accidents to aircraft belonging to private airlines, including the Dakota aircraft that crashed near Carlisle on 17th October; whether he will give the number of fatal accidents per million passenger miles flown for aircraft of the private airlines and the public Corporations respectively during 1960 and 1961 to date; and whether he will issue new and stricter safety regulations for all aircraft on charter flights.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. C. M. Woodhouse)

My right hon. Friend is indeed aware of the growing public concern over the recent accidents to aircraft belonging to private airlines and he shares it. He is today on a flight gaining background knowledge to assist him in considering the problems involved, and that is why I apologise for being here on his behalf.

In 1960, the accident rates asked for were nil both for independent operators and for the Corporations. In 1961, there have been three fatal accidents, including the tragic case yesterday, which did not, however, involve passengers. All three were to aircraft flown by independent operators, but relevant passenger mile figures are, I regret, not yet available for this year.

In Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, it is laid down that it is the responsibility of the State in which the accident occurs to conduct the investigation, and as soon as information concerning the causes of recent accidents is received my right hon. Friend will consider whether any general tightening up of the safety regulations is necessary. The safety regulations applying to aircraft registered in the United Kingdom do not distinguish between aircraft belonging to the airways Corporations and the independent operators.

May I add that I know that my right hon. Friend, like myself, would wish to be associated with every expression of sympathy for the relatives of the victims of these disasters.

Mr. Strachey

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that his right hon. Friend, on 5th December last, did give the figures for private airlines and public Corporations separately relating to the years 1958 and 1959, so that these figures are distinguishable? It is very important that we should have available these figures for recent months and years, not because we want to blacken the record of the private airlines but because it is very important to know the causes of these accidents—whether it is charter flying in itself, or whether there are some difficulties in the private airlines operations—and it is really vital that this should be sifted and the figures distinguished one from another. Will the hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that these figures will be made available as soon as possible?

Mr. Woodhouse

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is desirable that these figures should be made known. As I made clear, for 1960 there are no relevant figures because, mercifully, there were no fatal accidents. In 1961, all three of the accidents have taken place in the last few weeks and it has not been possible in the time available to get detailed figures covering the whole year relating to particular cases.

Mr. Strachey

Will the figures be available in due course?

Mr. Woodhouse

Yes. I think that it would be premature to say anything more about the causes, before the inquiries which are now in progress are completed.

Mr. Gresham Cooke

Would my hon. Friend agree that the distinction here is between charter flights and scheduled flights? Is he further aware that according to the latest figures that I have been able to obtain for the year 1958, which, admittedly, is some time ago, based on movements in and out of Great Britain, charter flights had an accident record five times worse than that of scheduled flights?

In his inquiries into this matter, will my hon. Friend look into these two aspects: is the route testing of pilots going overseas on charter flights the same as for scheduled flights, and is he convinced that the navigational equipment on charter aircraft is as good as on scheduled aircraft?

Mr. Woodhouse

The regulations governing navigational equipment are exactly the same for the charter companies as for scheduled flights.

As regards the first part of the supplementary question and the reference to the figures for 1958, it is, of course, the case that since then—in fact, in the last few months—my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation has introduced under the Air Navigation Order a provision for the issue of air operators' certificates to the charter companies, which can, of course, be, and, in some cases, have been, withdrawn if they do not conform to a proper standard of safety.

Mr. Mason

Is the Parliamentary Secretary not aware that since about 1958 there have been no fatal accidents at all on Corporation aircraft, and that on independent airlines in the past seven years the death rate has been three times higher than in Corporation aircraft? The real problem is in charter aircraft, where the death rate is more than five times higher than on Corporation aircraft.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that next year a quarter of a million people are destined to go from this country in charter aircraft to take their holidays abroad? Does he not agree that it is in this field where an inquiry is urgently required? These are real issues. We want to have an inquiry before these quarter of a million people take a chance with these charter aircraft next year.

Mr. Woodhouse

I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is this distinction, and it is a valid distinction. It is precisely for this reason that the Minister has recently introduced the system of air operators' certificates to make sure that the charter companies do conform to the necessary regulations.

Mr. F. Harris

Will the Minister note that, following the deaths of so many children from Croydon in a recent tragic air crash, there is a very strong feeling indeed that full inquiries should be held in this country into such tragic accidents? Would my hon. Friend consider, as a matter of routine, that such inquiries should be held in this country, apart from the inquiry in the country where the tragedy has actually occurred?

Mr. Woodhouse

I should explain that the provisions of the Chicago Convention of 1944 provide that only the State in which an accident takes place should conduct the inquiry, unless it itself relinquishes the right to the State of the aircraft concerned. In the case to which my hon. Friend has referred—the disaster at Stavanger—I can assure him that the Department is receiving every possible co-operation from the Norwegian authorities.

Mr. Strachey

Will not the Parliamentary Secretary consider an inquiry, not into any particular accident, but into the whole question of whether there is anything in charter flying as such which makes it more dangerous and whether there are not measures which can be taken to improve the situation?

Mr. Woodhouse

I will certainly convey the right hon. Gentleman's point to my right hon. Friend, but I would repeat that it seems to me premature to reach any conclusions about the cases that have just occurred.

Mr. Mason

On a point of order. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the Parliamentary Secretary's reply, particularly on the question relating to charter aircraft operations, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.