Pit Closures (Hansard, 27 November 1961)

§ 4. Mr. Snow
asked the Minister of Power what information he has received from the National Coal Board regarding its proposals for the closure of Lea Hall Pit, Rugeley, Staffordshire.

11. Mr. Slater
asked the Minister of Power what information he has regarding the future of the combined mine at Dean and Chapter, Ferry Hill.

§ 26. Mr. Shinwell
asked the Minister of Power what information he has received from the National Coal Board 11 as to its plan for closing pits in the Parliamentary Division of Easington in 1961, 1962 and 1963.

§ Mr. Wood
Decisions on the closure of individual pits are a matter of day-to-day management by the National Coal Board and hon. Members should ask the chairman for this information. I expect that the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Snow) has seen the Board's announcement on 23rd November which showed that there is no question of closing the Lea Hall Colliery. The Board has made no announcement about Dean and Chapter Colliery, and the only information that the Board has given about closures in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) is that Wingate Colliery may be closed in 1962.

§ Mr. Snow
Is the Minister aware that I have not seen the notice by the National Coal Board and that it has not been notified to me? Secondly, is he aware that the Question was put down with a view to scotching rumours and uncertainty which have been created largely as a result of what happened recently in Scotland, where another pit which had been the subject of substantial capital investment has been closed, apparently prematurely? Thirdly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many local authorities in mining areas who are becoming increasingly apprehensive at the substantial financial investment which they are being forced to make in the provision of houses, an investment which carries with it a high interest rate liability and which worries them considerably?

§ Mr. Wood
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not see the announcement by the Coal Board, but I think he will now be satisfied that the rumours relating to this pit have been effectively scotched.

Mr. Slater
In view of his reply to my Question No. 11, does the Minister appreciate that meetings have been held in the district concerning the future of the mine and possible redundancies, which have been greatly publicised by the local Press? What consultations take place between the right hon. Gentleman's Department, the Board of 12 Trade and the Ministry of Labour when redundancies are pending as a result of the closure of collieries?

§ Mr. Wood
I think I made clear in previous Answers to Questions that there is consultation, naturally, between the National Coal Board, on the one side, and my Department and the Board of Trade and other Departments, on the other, so that we can try to think ahead about this matter, but I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Member, as he asks me in this Question, definite information. I think that this must be information for the chairman of the Board to give.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if Wingate Pit closes, as he says—it will be next year, will it not?—that place will become completely derelict, and that there is no other industry available for those who will be displaced from employment? Does he not agree that surely a matter of this sort is not the exclusive property of the National Coal Board, but also a matter for the Government?

§ Mr. Wood
I do not think that the Board has made out that it is its exclusive property. I think it has already discussed it with the unions, and it has given me certain information about the possibility of closure, in order to enable me and my right hon. Friends to think ahead in the sense I was describing to the hon. Member just now.

§ 17. Mr. Shinwell
asked the Minister of Power how many pits were closed in the county of Durham in the last five years; to what extent he was informed of consultations held under Section 46 of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, with the Durham Miners' Association on those closures; and what is the number of pits to be closed in the next five years in this area.

§ Mr. Wood
Sixteen since the beginning of 1957. The Board consults the unions and keeps me informed of what it has decided. It does not tell me of the details of its consultations with the unions. The number of pits to be closed in the next five years will depend on the circumstances of individual colleries and on the demand for coal.

§ Mr. Shinwell
If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that before any pits 13 are closed the National Coal Board consults the National Union of Mineworkers and other organisations representing workers in the industry and that the views of the workers' representatives are taken into account, is the right hon. Gentleman never informed of what happens? Is he aware that Section 46 of the Act provided that the National Coal Board is compelled to consult representatives of workers and that the implication was that the Ministry was fully informed?

§ Mr. Wood
The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, quite right. The Act requires the Board to set up arrangements in the industry for these discussions. The arrangements exist and discussions take place. I am informed of the results of these discussions. What I am not informed of is exactly what detailed course the discussions take, and I do not see any reason why I should be informed of the details.

§ Mr. Shinwell
If the right hon. Gentleman is informed at any time by representatives of workers in the industry that they strongly object to the closing of certain pits, what action does he take?

§ Mr. Wood
In that case I would no doubt have conversations with the National Coal Board on the matter, but such representations have not been made to me.

§ 19. Mr. Finch
asked the Minister of Power what information he has of the number of colliery closures which will take place due to shortage of manpower.

§ Mr. George
The Board has not so far had to close collieries because of shortage of labour and is not expecting to have to do so in future.

§ Mr. Finch
Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that there are to be pit closures because of the shortage of manpower? Ought he not to be informed of the position so that he can at least consult the Ministry of Labour before collieries are closed?

§ Mr. George
I must repeat the answer which I have already given—"The Board has not so far had to close collieries because of shortage of labour". The shortage of labour is only one aspect of the conditions at a colliery which are considered when a colliery 14 is closed. Many other factors are considered. No pit has been closed for that reason alone.

§ Mr. J. Griffiths
While I agree that no pits have yet been closed owing to shortage of manpower, is the hon. Gentleman aware that in many areas there is considerable concern that this situation may be reached in the near future? Was it reported to him last week that in the South Western Division of the National Coal Board, which includes South Wales, during the past 17 weeks 777 men have left the industry and not been replaced? Does he realise that if that sort of thing goes on for very long pits will have to close because there will be no men left to work them?

§ Mr. George
Perhaps I might repeat the second half of my first answer—"The Board is not expecting to have to do so in the future". It is true that there is a serious manpower problem, but it is also true that if the men in the industry were properly distributed the problem would be a great deal less than it is. We are particularly conscious of the difficulties in Wales, and this is having, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the serious attention of the National Coal Board.

§ Mr. Ness Edwards
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his view is quite contrary to that generally held in South Wales, and that the redeployment of manpower from one pit to another is also in contemplation? Will he and the right hon. Gentleman try to instil some confidence into the industry and persuade some of their colleagues on the Government benches to refrain from sending round rumours which are causing men to leave the industry?

§ Mr. George
The best way for the industry to regain that confidence is for it to show itself to be self-supporting and on the way up in productivity. That is happening. The productivity of the industry is higher now than the target for 1965. We believe that confidence will return to the industry when it is shown to be able to stand upon its own feet against all competition.

§ 25. Mr Neal
asked the Minister of Power what information he has received from the National Coal Board about the 15 number of pits which will be closed in the English and Welsh divisions of the National Coal Board during 1962.

§ Mr. Wood
The National Coal Board has given me the information which it is now discussing with the unions concerned. It is for the Board and not for me to disclose this information.

§ Mr. Neal
How long does it take information from the National Coal Board to percolate to the House of Commons? There appears to be poor liaison in this matter, and I am not surprised by hon. Members' feelings about it. The right hon. Gentleman was boasting a moment ago of his skill as a co-ordinator. Is he co-ordinating with his Ministerial colleagues with a view to settling new industries in the areas which are becoming derelict in order to provide work for redundant miners?

§ Mr. Wood
I think that I am co-ordinating in almost every direction. The hon. Gentleman asked me how long it takes for information from the National Coal Board to percolate to the House of Commons If it is information which only the Board can give, then the percolation takes as long as it takes for individual members of this House to ask the chairman, when he will give the information, if he can.