HC Deb 27 November 1961 vol 650 cc1-5
1. Mr. Fitch

asked the Minister of Power, in giving his approval to the Gas Council's proposals for the import of methane from North Africa, what conditions he laid down regarding the total amount of town gas from that source in relation to total supplies.

16. Mr. Neal

asked the Minister of Power whether he has given any general directions to the Gas Council regarding the maximum amount of liquid methane to be imported.

The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Wood)

I have not issued conditions or directions of this kind, but under the scheme I have authorised town gas derived from methane will be only about one-tenth of total gas supplies.

Mr. Fitch

Is the Minister aware that this 10 per cent. importation of methane is from a politically unstable area? Will he give an assurance that at least for the next ten years there will be no increase in the figure of 10 per cent.?

Mr. Wood

I cannot give such an assurance, because that would commit us too rigidly in the future. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that before I gave my approval to the scheme, I made sure, and I satisfied myself, that gas supplies in this country could be provided even if the worst should happen in the area of the source of this methane.

Mr. Neal

Is the Minister telling the House that the Gas Council has plenary power to import as much methane as it likes? How long will the Minister be without a plan for the fuel industry? When he has finished with this charade of open competition and consumer choice, where will he find the customers for the coal that is displaced by liquid methane?

Mr. Wood

The Gas Council does not have my sanction to import as much methane as it likes. It has my sanction under the scheme to import methane from which about one-tenth of our existing total of town gas supplies will be produced. That is all the sanction that the Gas Council has.

9. Mr Mason

asked the Minister of Power what representations he has received from the National Union of Mineworkers regarding his decision to allow the importation of liquid methane from North Africa; and what reply he has sent.

Mr. Wood

None, Sir. The Executive Committee of the National Union of Mineworkers explained their views on this subject to me at a meeting last June, but I have received no representations from the National Union since the decision was announced.

Mr. Mason

Is the Minister not aware that during the course of that meeting they objected most strongly to the importation of liquid methane? Has he not had time yet to assess what will be the effects on the mining industry of his decision, that confidence in the mining industry is rapidly on the wane, that the voluntary wastage of manpower is increasing, and that in the past 12 months 60 per cent. of the people who have voluntarily left the industry have been under 31 years of age? Is it not time that the Minister reviewed the situation before he kills the industry with imports of gas and oil, even before it is due naturally to die?

Mr. Wood

I think that the hon. Member's supplementary question was intended more to give than to elicit information, but whether or not that is true, I have explained on many occasions the part which I believe methane will play in meeting the fuel needs of this country, and I approved the scheme because of the urgent need of the gas industry to reduce its costs. If it does not reduce its costs pretty quickly, the future for the consumption of coal by the gas industry will not be very bright.

Mr. Brockway

How final is this agreement? In view of the fact that the future of the supply of methane from the Sahara is very much in doubt and is dependent on negotiations between the French Government and the provisional Government of Algeria, would it not be better to postpone any final signing of the agreement until these problems are settled?

Mr. Wood

I do not think so. I have given permission to the Gas Council to sign an agreement with the authorities in North Africa. As I have explained on several occasions to the House, I did not give that permission without making it perfectly clear and satisfying myself completely that alternative supplies could be provided in this country if supplies from North Africa broke down.

13. Mr. Emery

asked the Minister of Power whether, in his consideration of the scheme to import liquid methane, he took account of the possibility of producing town gas more cheaply by the use of products offered at lower prices than methane.

Mr. Wood

Yes, Sir. The Gas Council took the view, with which I agree, that the technical advantages of methane more than offset the somewhat lower landed cost at which petroleum products were offered by certain oil companies.

Mr. Emery

Does my right hon. Friend not think that the possibility of being able to produce town gas sold to the consumer at between 7d. and 7½d. a therm rather than the 8½d. which it is suggested methane might be produced at would bring a 12½ per cent. saving to the consumer? Is not this something which ought to be more fully considered?

Mr. Wood

I should like to make clear to my hon. Friend that it was the methane scheme that was put to me by the Gas Council. It suggested that it was important and of technical benefit to the industry to have this gas. I am quite convinced that my decision will strengthen the competitive position of the Gas Council, but I have always stressed in conversation with the Gas Council, in public, and in the House, that there is no single road to the production of cheaper gas, whether it comes from methane or oil-based products like propane, butane or naphtha.

Mr. Emery

Does this mean that my right hon. Friend would consider favourably the importation of propane in addition to methane if it can reduce the price?

Mr. Wood

I will certainly consider very carefully any proposals put to me.

28. Mr. Albu

asked the Minister of Power whether he will make it a condition of the tender for the two proposed methane carriers that they should include alternative methods of propulsion.

Mr. Wood

No, Sir. The design of these ships is not a matter for me, but I understand that propulsion will be conventional and subject to no exceptional risk or difficulty.

Mr. Albu

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the only two firms asked to tender for these ships is prepared to offer alternative propulsive machinery to that of their own manufacture, but that the other firm is not prepared to do so? Is he aware that this firm was referred to in the recent report by Messrs. Peat, Marwick and Mitchell on orders for ships placed abroad, when the reason given for its losing these orders was that it was not able to make such an offer? Will he refer this to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport?

Mr. Wood

It is a matter for the Gas Council to decide how it wants its ships propelled. I understand that these firms put in tenders for certain methods of propulsion and that both Lloyds and the Port of London Authority are perfectly satisfied from the point of view of safety.