HC Deb 14 November 1961 vol 649 cc183-5
29 Dame Irene Ward

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in discussions with trades unions on the establishment of a National Economic Development Council, he is also consulting with unions not affiliated to the Trades Union Congress.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd

On the trade union side I have only been in consultation with the Trades Union Congress

Dame Irene Ward

Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether he thinks that this country consists only of the T.U.C. and the employers' organisations? Is he not aware that there are many hundreds of thousands of people who are not associated with either? In this great measure to try to secure our economy, should he not pay more attention to a lot of other people who are just as interested as are these bodies, and will he contact them?

Mr. Lloyd

I think that the answer to the first part of the supplementary question is "No, Sir." With regard to the second part, I am aware of that fact but I still think that, in the consultations in which I have been engaged, I have followed the usual course. If any of the other organisations to which my hon. Friend is referring wish to send comments or representations to me on this point I am always willing to receive them. Of course, various other bodies have done so, but not those bodies to which my hon. Friend referred.

Dame Irene Ward

Would my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that the country would be very much better pleased if he took a little more trouble over other sections of the community and did not always refer to trade unions and employers? Why should other people send my right hon. and learned Friend information when he is so busy trying to get the trade unions and employers together? Many of these other people would like to see him.

Mr. Lloyd

A great many people would like to see me. I am very glad to see them on any possible occasion and to hear the views they wish to put forward. With regard to this operation, I should like to deal with representatives of the Trades Union Congress and the employers' organisations.

30. Dame Irene Ward

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in discussions with the employers and trades unions over the setting up of a National Economic Development Council, he is considering safeguards for those whose productivity cannot be increased or measured and whose improvements in salaries and wages could not be regulated by accepted productive effort.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd

Discussions about the setting up of a National Economic Development Council are at present concerned mainly about the organisation and functions of the Council. With regard to the formulation of a policy about wages, salaries and other incomes, I would refer my hon. Friend to the speech I made, in the debate of 23rd October.

Dame Irene Ward

Yes, but is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, although I indeed support him in the efforts he is trying to make, everyone would be very much better pleased if the whole policy was put across with greater knowledge, greater humanity and an understanding of the anxieties of many people who seem to have no opportunity—like the supplementary to medicine group and the small fixed income group and a whole range of others —of knowing how their interests are to be protected? Is my right hon. Friend aware that I think that the whole thing has been put across abominably?

Mr. Lloyd

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her help in this regard, for on this question of the classes of the community in which she is so interested she takes jolly good care to see that I know a great deal about what they think.

Mr. Oram

is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there are 13 million consumers who are members of the Co-operative Movement, and would he consider inviting that organisation to join in this planning council?

Mr. Lloyd

I have considered whether it would be wise to have representatives of consumers upon this body. That matter is still under my consideration, but, in order not to raise false hopes, I think it would be wrong. That is my provisional opinion. I think it is much better that this body should consist of representatives of the Government, of the trade unions and of employers, with possibly one or two independents. I am still discussing the matter with other people, and I have nothing to add today.

Mr. Lee

Reverting to the original question, is it not the case that at the moment only people whose productivity cannot be measured are coming within the right hon. and learned Gentleman's ban? Would he say at what point productivity in the Civil Service and the teaching profession will have improved, and how he will regulate it to the point where they can have increases?

Mr. Lloyd

I referred in my original Answer to remarks that I made on 23rd October. I have nothing to add on that point today. I am not disputing that the hon. Gentleman has a point which requires consideration.