HC Deb 31 May 1961 vol 641 cc242-7
28. Mr. Cronin

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement on the objects achieved by the Royal Air Force in the recent joint exercises Mayflight and Matador.

31. Mr. S. O. Davies

asked the Secretary of State for Air, why Her Majesty's Government sent the whole of the United Kingdom's V-Bomber force of more than 250 jet aeroplanes up to the Iron Curtain on Friday, 12th May; whether these bombers carried nuclear weapons; what consideration was given to the possible consequences, if the point at which the bomber force should turn back were miscalculated; and whether Her Majesty's Government received any assurances that no counter action would be taken by the middle and eastern European Powers.

33. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement about the operation during which bombing aeroplanes were sent across Europe on 12th May; and what plans he has for further flights of this nature.

Mr. W. J. Taylor

I will, with permission, answer this Question and numbers 31 and 33 together.

Mr. Cronin

On a point of order. I know that it is customary for the Government to try to obfuscate the issue when difficult Questions are asked, but the Questions in the names of my hon. Friends the Members for Merthyr Tydfil (Mr. S. O. Davies) and Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) are on completely different points to that raised in my Question. Is it in order for the Minister to deal with all three together?

Mr. Speaker

It is not out of order in the sense that the Chair can control a proposal of a Minister to group the Answers together.

Mr. Davies

Further to that point of order—

Mr. Speaker

It cannot be further to that point of order, because there was no point of order. The hon. Member may have another point of order.

Mr. Davies

May I put a point of order to you, Mr. Speaker? My permission has not been sought by the Minister for him to associate my Question with the Questions of my hon. Friends.

Mr. Speaker

I cannot deal with whether any hon. Members desire to be associated with other hon. Members. The hon. Member and the House will recall that I have ruled about it more than once, following my predecessors. The words "with permission" are a matter of courtesy only.

Mr. Taylor

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will now, with permission, answer this Question and Questions Nos. 31 and 33 together.

During the period 10th May to 16th May, V-bombers took part with other Royal Air Force units in exercises similar to those held in previous years. Our intention to hold these exercises and a statement of the area in which they were to take place were published in a Notice to Airmen on 18th April which had an international distribution. The routes flown by the aircraft were planned in advance and involved neither a close approach to the border of any Eastern European country or the Soviet Zone of Germany, nor any manoeuvre which could be misconstrued. These exercises provide a necessary means of testing the readiness and efficiency of our deterrent and air defence forces.

Mr. Cronin

Dealing with the first point arising on this question, is it not the case that these exercises were based largely on strategic concepts of the last war? Will the hon. Gentleman state why it was assumed for the purpose of the exercises that the V-bombers would have twelve hours' notice before taking the necessary action in the event of enemy aggression?

Mr. Taylor

With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not feel that I should in this House discuss matters of procedure and strategy with regard to one of the main defence elements of this country. I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman said about an outmoded theory being used.

Mr. Cronin

Surely, the Air Ministry issued this information to the Press? It was in all the newspapers. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us why the newspapers can inform us that it takes V-bombers twelve hours to proceed to their dispersal airfields before becoming operational?

Mr. Taylor

I am not responsible for what appears in the Press. I can only repeat that the way in which these exercises were planned and executed ruled out any possibility of provocation. They were carried out in accordance with the best modern military principles, and, surely, if we have a Royal Air Force which we have built up by such great efforts, it is entitled to have rehearsals to enable it to fulfil its proper rôle in the defence of this country, if called upon to do so.

Mr. Davies

Will the hon. Gentleman appreciate that we have no objection to rehearsals as such? Will he now answer Question No. 31, for which I am responsible? Did they get anywhere near the alleged Iron Curtain? Did they carry any nuclear bombs or weapons? Did they take into consideration any possible miscalculation as to the point at which the V-bombers should return?

Mr. Taylor

I have already replied to the hon. Gentleman's Question about the area in which these exercises took place. With regard to whether they carried nuclear weapons, it is not the practice to discuss operational procedures of this kind, and, with all respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not intend to make an exception on this occasion.

Mr. Allaun

Is the Minister denying the truth of the reports in certain newspapers, including the Sunday Times, that from twenty to forty stations in our country these H-bombers departed on courses which would have taken them to the principal Russian cities—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would reframe that supplementary question. In that form, the question is out of order, because it is not for the Minister to comment one way or another on newspaper reports for which he is not responsible.

Mr. Allaun

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I will reframe it. Is the Minister denying that on 12th May, H-bombers departed from stations in our country on courses which would have brought them to the principal Russian cities, and that these planes flew in the range of Russian, radar screens? If so, does he not agree that this is a highly provocative business, because the slightest miscalculation either on the Russian or the British side could land us in a third world war?

Mr. Taylor

I am not prepared to discuss what appeared in the Press. I am not responsible for it, and a good deal of it is very highly coloured and nowhere near the truth. The fact is that annual major exercises of this kind have been a feature of the training of Bomber and Fighter Commands in the Royal Air Force for some years. This year, the exercises of the two Commands were held concurrently to take advantage of the support that one exercise could give to the other. I am not prepared to discuss the courses upon which these aircraft were travelling. It is necessary to fly out over Europe and the North Sea in order to simulate an attack on this country from the east, and the exercises this year have been in no way exceptional in this respect.

Mr. G. Thomas

Is the Minister prepared to tell us whether the question of my hon. Friend, about whether these aeroplanes were carrying nuclear bombs, has any accuracy? Surely the public has a right to know.

Mr. Taylor

If it were only a question of informing the British public, that would be one thing, but I am not prepared to go any further than I have stated in my reply.

Mr. M. Foot

Is it not a fact that most of what has appeared in the Press on this subject has been handed out by the hon. Gentleman's own Ministry? Why should he deny it in the House of Commons? Is he refusing to give to the House of Commons information which, in one form or another, has been provided to the newspapers?

Mr. Taylor

Almost everything the hon. Gentleman has just said is untrue. I have before me, on the Box, a statement of the Press hand-out which was given to the Press by the Air Ministry, and it does not bear any relation to what the hon. Member has said. He may have a copy any time.

Mr. Allaun

Does not the Minister think that his refusal to deny the truth of these questions—a denial which he could very well give without giving away any information—will give to the country and to the whole world the impression that this devilishly dangerous provocation was actually carried out?

Mr. Taylor

There was no provocation of any kind, as I have said in my original reply. I will have the details which were given to the Press circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Callaghan

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of us, most of us, in this country take the view that the Royal Air Force is entitled to exercise, provided that there is no undue provocation? Will he repeat the assurance that there was no undue provocation on this occasion and that these were normal exercise? The hon. Gentleman is normally a very courteous Minister, but he is bristling rather a lot this afternoon. On the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin), the House is entitled to know whether these exercises were efficiently carried out. Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that they were? Why did it take this length of time for these aircraft to be concentrated before the exercises could take place? We are entitled to ask these questions and to know whether the huge sums of money which are being spent are being spent efficiently and wisely.

Mr. Taylor

The exercises were extremely successful. It will take some time for the results to be fully analysed, but preliminary reports show that they went very well, indeed.

I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman thought that I had lost my usual courtesy, but if I am bristling a bit it is at some of the supplementary questions which have been put to me and which seem a little wide of the mark and not very helpful to the country's defences.

Mr. Allaun

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply and its importance to our people, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Following is the Press release:

Major Royal Air Force Exercises

Two major Royal Air Force exercises designed to test as many aspects as possible of the offensive and defensive elements of Britain's contribution to the deterrent will be held between 10th May and 16th May. Bomber Command's ability to alert, disperse and subsequently to "scramble" the V-bomber force, and to alert the Thor missile force, will be practised in Exercise "May-flight"; and Fighter Command's rôle of detecting and combating enemy activity and alerting the retaliatory strike forces will be practised in Exercise Matador". After being dispersed to pre-arranged airfields, the V-bombers will be scrambled on simulated operational missions and on their return to bases they will "attack" targets in the United Kingdom to test the air defence system, including the control and reporting organisation, the fighters and the "Bloodhound" surface-to-air missiles. Exercise "Matador" "enemy" forces will also be provided by aircraft of R.A.F., Germany, the United States Air Force, the Royal Canadian Air Force based in Europe, and the French Air Force. Opportunity will also be taken to exercise the nuclear incident and fall-out reporting organisation in which the Royal Observer Corps will be fully employed. Mayflight" will be directed by the Ah Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Bomber Command. Air Marshal Sir Kenneth Cross, and "Matador" by the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Fighter Command, Air Marshal Sir Hector McGregor.