Constitutional Conferences (Hansard, 30 May 1961)

§ 23. Mr. Stonehouse
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the futher constitutional conferences to be called on Kenya as announced recently by the Under-Secretary of State in Nairobi.

§ Mr. Iain Macleod
A new Constitution has recently come into force in Kenya and I have no statement to make regarding future constitutional conferences.

§ Mr. Stonehouse
Is the Colonial Secretary aware that some of us have a great deal of sympathy with the Under-Secretary that some of his remarks should be quoted out of context by certain newspapers in Kenya and elsewhere, but that we are glad that since his return to the United Kingdom the Under-Secretary has clarified what he said in Nairobi? In particular, is the Colonial Secretary aware that we are pleased that there is no question of Kenya proceeding to complete independence without new elections being held on a basis which will allow fairer representation to the major tribes?

§ Mr. Macleod
The hon. Member knows very well that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary did not say what he has put into his mouth in the last part of his supplementary question. What my hon. Friend did say, which is a statement of fact, is that Kenya is not yet at the stage of responsible government, let alone of full internal self-government or of independence.

§ Mr. Callaghan
Did the Under-Secretary say that independence is several years ahead? If so, is he or the Minister standing by that or do we regard that statement as being withdrawn?

§ Mr. Macleod
I have always spoken in terms of stages. My hon. Friend said that these stages would take several conferences, which is obviously true, and several years. I have no intention of trying to define that phrase further. It is unquestionably true that it is quite wrong for politicians in Kenya to say that independence, for example, could come to Kenya in 1961 when nobody knows better than those same politicians that that is quite untrue.

§ Mr. Callaghan
Is not the Colonial Secretary aware that there has been an expectation in Kenya, some people anticipating it gleefully and others with regret, that if independence did not come in 1961, it would come probably next year? In view of the unrest which has been caused by the Under-Secretary's words, will the Colonial Secretary now define a little more precisely what is in his mind about the achievement of independence? Does he expect it to come, as hitherto was expected until the Under-Secretary spoke, within, say, the next eighteen months or two years?

§ Mr. Macleod
No. No member of the Government has ever attempted to define the stages that are necessary for Kenya to advance politically and constitutionally in terms of years. I have no criticism whatever to make of the words used by my hon. Friend. He said that these stages are in front of Kenya, and so they are, and he used the expression "several years". I do not think that it is at all profitable to attempt to define that further.

§ Mr. P. Williams
Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the two important things in this matter are, first, to avoid a timetable, and secondly, that the existing Constitution should be made to work satisfactorily for all races in Kenya?

§ Mr. Macleod
Yes. I entirely agree with that, and not only in this case, but in all cases. In dealing with constitutional advances in the territory, I have always resolutely refused to agree to timetables.

§ Mr. Callaghan
Whilst we have all had experience of uttering words that may be regretted afterwards, have we not now reached the position that the 18 Under-Secretary, having made a statement, has subsequently modified it? Would it not be simpler if he were now to withdraw it altogether so that we could return to the position that existed before he made it, so that there was no timetable announced and we were not left in the position that the Minister has to defend an obviously indefensible statement? Why not withdraw it?

§ Mr. Macleod
I do not think that that is the position. Had I thought that there was something which should be withdrawn, I am sure that my hon. Friend would have withdrawn the words in this House. I have made it clear, as my hon. Friend also has done, that there has been no change in Her Majesty's Government's policies. I have never put forward timetables for Kenya or for any other Colony. I am certain that the right thing to do, as my hon. Friend said, is to study the position and to take constitutional advance at the pace that is appropriate to the economic circumstances of the country and to the needs of all the races in it.