HC Deb 02 May 1961 vol 639 cc1342-6
Mr. Paget

I beg to move, in page 3, line 28, to leave out from "time" to end of line 29.

The Temporary Chairman

It might be convenient to discuss with this Amendment the other Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Marsh), in page 3, line 31, leave out from beginning to "have," in line 36, after "is," insert "so," in line 36 leave out from "reserve" to "he" in line 38, and in page 4, leave out lines 13 to 19.

3.0 a.m.

Mr. Paget

These are simply drafting Amendments. The one I have moved refers to the final line and a half of Clause 3 (2)— before he has completed twelve years' service beginning with the relevant date. The Amendment would make it read: Every person who enlists on a long-term enlistment may, on making an application in the prescribed manner, and with the consent of the competent military authority, be transferred to the reserve at any time. Why should it not be "at any time"? Why do we not want him transferred to the Reserve if the competent authority desires it and he desires it?

The next Amendment is a simple interrogative. The subsection reads: Every person who enlists on a long-term enlistment shall, subject to the provisions of this section, have the right to determine his service at the end of the period of twelve years… Why is there a reservation? It is an absolute right, and I do not see how other parts of the Clause derogate from it. Unless they do, then the words subject to the provisions of this section are clearly unnecessary. They have significance only if the right, which the subsection otherwise gives, is reduced.

The next two Amendments are drafting. They are in subsection (4). The subsection reads: Where a person is transferred to the reserve under regulations made in pursuance of subsection (1) of this section, or under subsection (2) of this section, he shall serve in the reserve… We have been dealing with those two subsections, and if we simply say, Where a person is so transferred the next two lines become unnecessary. That one short word does everything which is done by those two lines—and more neatly and more simply.

The Amendment to subsection (5) is a simplification. By adding at the end of (5,a) the words, shall comply with that undertaking, and we make paragraph (b), which consists of six lines unnecessary.

I will say exactly what I said last time. The Under-Secretary of State has no lawyers to help him and his right hon. Friend is not here. He is rather tired; he had a long day before coming here, and it is too late for him to apply his mind to this kind of question. I ask him, not to give an undertaking that he will accept the Amendments, but to say that in the light of my explanation he will talk to the lawyers about this and see whether my suggestions for simplification should be adopted.

Mr. Ramsden

I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I have noted what he said and certainly accept his suggestion, provided that it is on the understanding that if we are still convinced, having looked at his redraft, that our draft is the only draft which is applicable, he will accept that we must abide by it.

Mr. Paget

In that case, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Cronin

I wish to raise a few points, which I will do as briefly as possible in view of the lateness of the hour. But so important a matter as a change of the conditions of service of long-term enlistment cannot be allowed to go through "on the nod".

May I draw the Minister's attention to subsection (1), which regulates the opting out provisions. It is clear from this subsection that this is something entirely at the discretion of the Army Council. It has complete powers to make regulations. Some of us feel rather worried lest, if there is a diminuation in the strength of the Army due to failure to recruit, the rights of a soldier as he knew them when he enlisted should as a result be prejudiced from the point of view of shortening his service. Some of us feel that we should have at least a vague idea of how the Army Council is likely to use these powers. We should also like to know whether steps will be taken to make these regulations available to hon. Members so that we may at least have some form of parliamentary check on what is happening.

I turn now to subsections (2) and (3) of the Clause. Subsection (2) permits application to be made to go on to the Reserve after twelve years' service, and subsection (3) provides for a soldier to be placed on the Reserve after a period of three years after his 12-year period. Obviously, there will be a financial disadvantage in doing this, and it is only right and just that the Army, which is going to the trouble of training a man, should do its utmost to induce him to stay on for the full term of his engagement. Some of us would like to know exactly how disadvantageous it is financially for a soldier who opts to go on the Reserve at a considerably earlier time than after his long-term period of service.

As hon. Members know, there is a tendency in most occupations these days for employees in civilian life to be able to carry their superannuation rights from one firm to another. This is a modern trend in superannuation. One does not expect anything as advantageous as that in the Army, but we should like to know that there is some reasonable compromise between the wish of the Army to keep men with the Colours as long as possible and, at the same time, the maintaining of some sort of equity as regards their pension rights or gratuity which they receive in lieu of pension.

I turn now to subsection (4), which sets out briefly the conditions of transfer to the Reserve. As I understand, the present position under the Army Reserve Act, 1950, is that a man who has served for six years goes on to the Reserve for six years, that a man who has served for nine years goes on to the Reserve for three years and that a man who has served for twelve years does not go on the Reserve at all.

Of those who go on to the Reserve, some go into Section A. They can be recalled to the Colours without a proclamation. Others go to Section B and they cannot be called up unless there is a proclamation. As a proclamation is a most unlikely eventuality they are in a strong position inasmuch as they are unlikely to be recalled to the Colours.

I should like the Under-Secretary of State for War to tell us how it is decided, in the case of a man who terminates his service, whether he goes into Section A or Section B of the Reserve. If the hon. Gentleman will give his attention to the points I have raised I shall be much obliged.

Mr. Ramsden

I am obliged to the hon. Member for having given me some indication of the queries he might have on the Clause. I hope that I can give him some of the explanations he has sought. As to subsection (1), there are regulations now in force relating to the right of persons enlisted for long terms to determine their service or to transfer to the Reserve. Similar regulations will be made under the Bill. A man can go into the Reserve at the end of six years, in some instances in three years, or after nine years' service, as, I think, has already been mentioned by my right hon. Friend. Men can determine service at the end of twelve years or at the end of successive periods of three years. The regulations are not formally laid, but they are on sale at the Stationery Office, which means that they are available without payment to hon. Members.

The hon. Member also asked questions about subsections (2) and (3). If a soldier goes out short of twenty-two years on his engagement he will not get a pension, as the hon. Member has said, but he will receive a gratuity after serving for twelve years. The amount of gratuity increases from twelve to twenty-two years and at the point of twenty-two years the man has earned a pension. I hope that gives some indication to the hon. Member of a man's financial position.

Mr. Cronin

Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that the gratuity which a man receives after twelve years' service, for example, will be roughly about twelve twenty-seconds of the capital sum which would bring him the pension that he would receive after twenty-two years' service?

Mr. Ramsden

I cannot say what the mathematical relationship is between the gratuity and the capital sum, but I should be very surprised if it were not in accordance with the principles which the hon. Member has indicated.

On subsection (4), all soldiers opting out, initially go compulsorily to Section A of the Reserve for one year. Thereafter, they may be allowed to volunteer for further periods as Section A reservists. The remainder of their Reserve service is spent in Section B. I think that those were the hon. Member's principal queries. I hope that what I have said will be of some guidance to him and the Committee and that the Committee may now see its way to pass the Clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.