HC Deb 29 March 1961 vol 637 cc1308-10
1. Commander Kerans

asked the Minister of Transport what are the regulations regarding the maximum width of loads on road transport vehicles; and what statutory regulations are in force concerning exceptional loads.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay)

The maximum width of load normally permissible on motor vehicles is 9 feet 6 inches. Where a load exceeds this width, the police must be notified of its movement in advance, and they have power to control the time and route. Loads which exceed 20 feet in width can move only under an order issued by my right hon. Friend. An order is also necessary before loads over 14 feet wide can use the motorways, and we have circulated proposals which would enable us to control all loads of this width.

Commander Kerans

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask what liaison takes place with large firms moving these very heavy loads, especially on the M.1 and comparable roads, to limit the excessive dimensions which one sometimes sees?

Mr. Hay

As I said in my Answer, the police must always be notified of the movement of any load of this kind and, if the load exceeds the dimensions which I mentioned in my Answer, my right hon. Friend's Department has to be approached. I understand that it is an offence to fail to do that.

Mr. H. Hynd

Would the hon. Gentleman consider insisting that all loads of an exceptional size or weight should be moved by rail wherever possible in the interests of road users and road services?

Mr. Hay

No, we are much more concerned with the interests of industry as a whole in this matter. Many of these loads are not susceptible to being moved by rail, or even by sea. Many can be moved only by road.

9. Commander Kerans

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will introduce legislation to prevent exceptionally heavy and wide loads using main roads to the coast during weekends, and thus ease traffic congestion.

Mr. Hay

We already have direct control over very large loads and we keep them off busy roads at summer weekends as far as possible. The police also have wide powers to control the movement of large loads. We are now considering new regulations which would extend our own control over wide loads and increase the powers of the police.

Commander Kerans

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is ludicrous to have these large and wide loads on the roads at week-ends, especially on Sundays, going down to the coast, when they are so close together that one cannot pass them for miles on end? It makes drivers impatient and increases the possibility of accidents. Is it not thoroughly unnecessary?

Mr. Hay

This is precisely why we have provided new regulations which, as I said in the Answer, we are considering with the very object of extending the Minister's control over the movement of these vehicles.

Mr. Manuel

Will the hon. Member consult his right hon. Friend to see whether the time has not arrived when we should have a propaganda campaign emanating from his Department to induce firms to see that as many of these wide loads—I am not talking about extra large loads—as possible are carried by rail, so saving many accidents which cause injuries on our roads?

Mr. Hay

That sounds very simple, but I am afraid that it is not quite so easy when my right hon. Friend's responsibilities to all types of transport are considered.

29. Mr. Awbery

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects to introduce his new regulations governing the movement of large loads by lorry.

Mr. Hay

As a result of the many representations we have received about these proposed new regulations we are now considering certain modifications of the proposals as circulated, in order to reduce the burden they would impose on industry, while maintaining their effectiveness. We intend to introduce the new regulations as soon as possible.

Mr. Awbery

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I have in my hand a photograph of two lorries with the load carried between them weighing 96 tons and being 130 feet long? Throughout its journey it had to be escorted by police. Can the hon. Gentleman tell us who pays the police—the owners of the vehicle, or the local authorities?

Mr. Hay

Questions about the police force should normally be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I believe that in this present type of case the charges made by the police are paid by the people who move the particular piece of machinery.

Mr. Gower

Is not the difficulty that it is not possible to convey some of these very large loads by any other means; in other words, they cannot be conveyed by rail because they are too wide?

Mr. Hay

This is perfectly true. As I said in reply to an earlier Question, some loads cannot physically be moved except by road because, for example, if they have to go through a tunnel and the tunnel is not wide enough we cannot widen the tunnel. That is one example, but a number of other factors come into it.

Mr. Mellish

Will he take it from this side of the House that there is another aspect? When we talk of lorries and loads we talk also of the men who drive them. The hon. Gentleman speaks of regulations—will he say whether he has had consultations with the unions concerned?

Mr. Hay

I am fairly certain that the proposals to which I referred in my Answer for alterations in the Regulations will have been circulated to the trade unions as well as to the other organisations affected.