HC Deb 28 March 1961 vol 637 cc1190-5

Question again proposed.

6.13 p.m.

Mr. G. Brown

I was saying, at the point of interruption, that, despite the ingenious way in which the Leader of the House had picked words out of what I had said in order to support his case, he had strengthened our case against the Motion rather than the other way round.

The right hon. Gentleman certainly frightened me considerably with his reference to the absolute unlikelihood of our being able to have time at all to discuss issues of considerable importance which hon. Members on both sides of the House have been wanting to discuss. We have our duty to think what we ought to do in the light of the way in which the debate has gone and the statement of the Leader of the House. I am bound to say that I see nothing whatever in that statement which could possibly make me feel now that I ought to advise my hon. and right hon. Friends not to oppose the Government's Motion.

It seems to me that we must develop our protest against the way in which events in the House have been handled during the weeks that will now come to an end if the Motion is passed. We must certainly mark our lack of satisfaction with our inability to discuss serious issues, an inability which the Leader of the House seems to forecast will be with us in the days ahead. We must certainly declare our dissatisfaction with the state of business on the Order Paper and the way in which efforts will be made to get serious and important Bills through the House late at night under cover of inadequate attendance and discussion. We must protest against all these things. I therefore propose to divide the House against the Motion and I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will support me in the Lobby.

6.16 p.m.

Dame Irene Ward (Tynemouth)

I must apologise, first, for not being able to be present during the discussion of the Motion, but I have had to attend the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. In particular, I want to apologise to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House for not being able to hear what he said.

After noting that, quite rightly, my right hon. Friend claims the full support of this side of the House in his regard for the liberty of the subject, I should like to know, before supporting the Motion, whether he has seen the Motion on the Order Paper in my name concerning the removal of a councillor from the Bedlingtonshire Council Chamber.

[That this House calls upon the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs to hold an inquiry into the removal of Councillor William Hall of the Bedlingtonshire Urban District Council by an officer of the Northumberland Police Force on the instruction of the Chairman of the Council, and is of opinion that, in view of this incident, Parliament should be informed as to what protection elected representatives of local authorities have and under what circumstances their removal from a council chamber can be carried out.]

I should also like to know whether my right hon. Friend can assure me that during the Recess an inquiry will be held into the circumstances which permitted an independent member of the Bedlingtonshire Urban District Council to be removed in the course of his duties and thereby prevented from registering his opposition to whatever was the subject under discussion during the meeting of the local authority.

I apologise to the House for not knowing the Standing Orders relating to local authority affairs and, therefore, I have included in my Motion a request to my right hon. Friend that he should inform the House what protection freely and democratically elected representatives on local councils have against being bodily removed and prevented from the pursuance of their duties.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. Lady, but the Question is, "That this House, at its rising on Thursday, do adjourn till Tuesday, 11th April", and I have to ask the hon. Lady to relate her observations to that.

Dame Irene Ward

I oppose the Motion unless I receive an assurance that ordinary members of the public will not be deterred, during our Recess, from doing the duty for which they have been democratically elected.

I listened to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House talking about Laos, which is tremendously important. It appears to me that it is equally important to know whether ordinary people are to be prohibited from doing their duty when it is quite impossible, when the House is in recess, for us to make any protest. My Motion is quite clear and I should be grateful if my right hon. Friend, in pursuance of his support of the liberty of the subject, could say whether we are to be saved from interference in local authorities or whether the House must protect the rights of freely elected representatives on local councils.

Mr. Stephen Swingler (Newcastle-under-Lyme)

I must warn the Leader of the House that if hon. Members follow the example of the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) he is liable to be faced with a parade of 88 hon. Members whose names head the present number of early day

Motions on the Order Paper which have no chance of being debated.

Dame Irene Ward

May I have an answer please?

Question put:

The House divided: Ayes 236, Noes 158.

Division No. 121.] AYES [6.19 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Maddan, Martin
Aitken, W. T. Gammans, Lady Maitland, Sir John
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Gibson-Watt, David Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Allason, James Godber, J. B. Markham, Major Sir Frank
Arbuthnot, John Goodhew, Victor Marten, Neil
Atkins, Humphrey Gower, Raymond Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Barlow, Sir John Grant, Rt. Hon. William Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
Barter, John Green, Alan Mills, Stratton
Batsford, Brian Gresham Cooke, R. Montgomery, Fergus
Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate) Grimston, Sir Robert Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Gurden, Harold More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Bell, Ronald Hall, John (Wycombe) Morgan, William
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) Morrison, John
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) Harris, Reader (Heston) Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Berkeley, Humphry Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Nabarro, Gerald
Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera (Macclesf'd) Nicholson, Sir Godfrey
Biggs-Davison, John Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Nugent, Sir Richard
Bingham, R. M. Harvie Anderson, Miss Oakshott, Sir Hendrie
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Hastings, Stephen Osborne, Cyril (Louth)
Bishop, F. P. Hay, John Page, John (Harrow, West)
Box, Donald Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Page, Graham (Crosby)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John Henderson, John (Cathcart) Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)
Boyle, Sir Edward Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Partridge, E.
Braine, Bernard Hendry, Forbes Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)
Brewis, John Hicks Beach, Maj. W. Peel, John
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Percival, Ian
Brooman-White, R. Hirst, Geoffrey Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth
Bryan, Paul Hobson, John Pike, Miss Mervyn
Bullard, Denys Hocking, Philip N. Pilkington, Sir Richard
Bullus, Wing Commander Eric Holland Philip Pitt, Miss Edith
Burden, F. A. Hollingworth, John Pott, Percivall
Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden) Hopkins, Alan Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Hornby, R. P. Price, David (Easteigh)
Carr, Compton (Barons Court) Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia Prior, J. M. L.
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho
Cary, Sir Robert Hughes-Young, Michael Proudfoot, Wilfred
Channon, H. P. G. Hulbert, Sir Norman Pym, Francis
Chataway, Chistopher Hurd, Sir Anthony Quennell, Miss J. M.
Chichester-Clark, R. Hutchison, Michael Clark Ramsden, James
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Iremonger, T. L. Rawlinson, Peter
Clark, William (Nottingham S.) Jackson, John Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin
Cole, Norman James, David Rees, Hugh
Cooper, A. E. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Jennings, J. C. Renton, David
Cordle, John Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Corfield, F. V. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Robertson Sir David
Coulson, J. M. Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Craddock, Sir Beresford Kerans, Cdr. J. S. Roots, William
Critchley, Julian Kerby, Capt. Henry Ropner Col. Sir Leonard
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Kerr, Sir Hamilton Scott-Hopkins James
Cunningham, Knox Kershaw, Anthony Seymour, Leslie
Curran, Charles Kimball, Marcus Sharples, Richard
Currie, G. B. H. Kitson, Timothy Shaw, M.
Dalkeith, Earl of Lambton, Viscount Shepherd, William
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Lancaster, Col. C. G. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn
de Ferranti, Basil Langford-Holt, J. Skeet, T. H. H.
Doughty, Charles Leavey, J. A. Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)
Drayson, G. B. Leburn, Gilmour Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)
du Cann, Edward Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Speir, Rupert
Duncan, Sir James Lilley, F. J. P. Stanley, Hon. Richard
Duthie, Sir William Lindsay, Martin Stevens, Geoffrey
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Litchfield, Capt. John Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Elliott. R. W. (Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.) Loveys, Walter H. Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Talbot, John E.
Farey-Jones, F, W. McAdden, Stephen Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)
Farr, John MacArthur, Ian Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)
Fell, Anthony McLaren, Martin Teeling, William
Finlay, Graeme Maclay, Rt. Hon. John Temple, John M.
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles McLean, Neil (Inverness) Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Macpherson, Nail (Dumfries) Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Freeth, Denzil Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin Walder, David Woodhouse, C. M.
Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) Walker, Peter Woodnutt, Mark
Tilney, John (Wavertree) Ward, Dame Irene Woollam, John
Turner, Colin Webster, David Worsley, Marcus
Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. Wells, John (Maidstone) Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Vane, W. M. F. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Mr. Whitelaw and Mr. Noble
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Awbery, Stan Hill, J. (Midlothlan) Peart, Frederick
Bacon, Miss Alice Hilton, A. V. Pentland, Norman
Benson, Sir George Holman, Percy Plummer, Sir Leslie
Blackburn, F. Houghton, Douglas Prentice, R. E.
Blyton, William Howell, Charles A. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Boardman, H. Howell, Denis Probert, Arthur
Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S.W.) Hoy, James H. Randall, Harry
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Hunter, A. E. Ross, William
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Hynd, H. (Accrington) Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.
Chetwynd, George Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Short, Edward
Cliffe, Michael Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas Silverman Julius (Aston)
Collick, Percy Jeger, George Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield) Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Cronin John Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Crosland, Anthony Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Small, William
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Kelley, Richard Snow, Julian
Davies, Harold (Leek) Kenyon, Clifford Sorensen, R. W.
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) King, Dr. Horace Spriggs, Leslie
Deer, George Lawson, George Steele, Thomas
Delargy, Hugh Lee, Frederick (Newton) Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Dempsey, James Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)
Diamond, John Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) Swingler, Stephen
Dodds, Norman Lipton, Marcus Sylvester, George
Driberg, Tom Logan, David Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John Loughlin, Charles Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Ede, Rt. Hon. C. Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) McCann, John Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Edwards, Robert (Bliston) MacColl, James Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)
Fernyhough, E. McInnes, James Thornton, Ernest
Finch, Harold McKay, John (Wallsend) Tomney, Frank
Fitch, Alan McLeavy, Frank Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Fletcher, Eric MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Wade, Donald
Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) Manuel, A. C. Wainwright, Edwin
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mapp, Charles Warbey, William
Forman, J. C. Marsh, Richard Weitzman, David
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Mason, Roy Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Galpern, Sir Myer Mendelson, J. J. White, Mrs. Eirene
George, Lady MeganLloyd (Crmrthn) Milne, Edward J. Whitlock, William
Ginsburg, David Mitchison, G. R. Wilkins, W. A.
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Monslow, Walter Willey, Frederick
Gourlay, Harry Moody, A. S. Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)
Grey, Charles Morris, John Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly) Moyle, Arthur Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)
Grimond, J. Oliver, G. H. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) Oswald, Thomas Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Hannan, William Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)
Hart, Mrs. Judith Pargiter, G. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hayman, F. H. Parker, John (Dagenham) Mr. Redhead and Dr. Broughton
Healey, Denis Parkin, B. T. (Paddington, N.)

Resolved, That this House, at its rising on Thursday, do adjourn till Tuesday, 11th April.