§ 9. Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a statement on the present military situation in Laos.
§ Mr. HeathThe combined forces of the Pathet Lao and Kong Lae have occupied a section of the road from Vientiane, the administrative capital, to Luang Prabang, the Royal capital. According to our most recent information units of the Royal Laotian Army are in contact with the Pathet Lao patrols at points on this road between eighty miles North of Vientiane and thirty miles South of Luang Prabang. There is evidence of increasing Pathet Lao activity in two other sectors; South of the area known as the Plaine des Jarres; and East of the point where the Mekong River turns South. Garrisons of the Royal Laotian Army were attacked in these sectors in the middle of last week, though we do not yet know with what result.
§ Mr. RidsdaleWill the Lord Privy Seal confirm or deny reports of Russian air-lifts to Laos of 400 tons a day? If this is true, is it not more than is needed for the support of a few battalions? Is he aware how much I hope that the present co-operation between President Kennedy and our Prime Minister in meeting this kind of challenge in Asia will be extended to Africa as well?
§ Mr. HeathI think we can confirm that there have been something like a thousand sorties from North Vietnam since last December, obviously carrying a considerable amount of supplies. Naturally, we have the closest consultations with the United States and our other allies on these matters.
§ Mr. HealeyCan the right hon. Gentleman confirm reports appearing in most British newspapers that in fact the fighting in Laos is on a very small scale indeed, and that many of the casualties returning from the Royal Laotian Army to Vientiane are suffering from self-inflicted wounds?
§ Mr. F. M. BennettIt sounds like the Labour Party.
§ Mr. HeathFighting between the two sides in Laos is of a sporadic nature, but it covers isolated parts of a very large area of the country.
§ Mr. Harold DaviesIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the road between Vientiane and Luang Prabang is not really a road at all and that there are only 750 miles of metal road in the entire area? Is it not a fact that most of these affrays are little guerrilla attacks caused by the hypocrisy of the West—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—by the sheer hypocrisy, I repeat, of the West—in not taking action over the International Supervisory Commission but allowing it to leave Laos?
§ Mr. HeathI used the term "road" as the most convenient indication of the areas where fighting is taking place. I cannot agree that this conflict is caused by the West. It is caused by a rising of the Pathet Lao which is being helped from outside.
§ Mr. A. HendersonIn view of the denial this morning by the North Vietnam Government that their troops are participating in this fighting, can the Minister give any evidence which is in his possession about foreign troops which are participating in this armed attack against Laos?
§ Mr. HeathI have seen this denial, but there is some evidence that Vietnam specialists are taking part with the Pathet Lao forces.
§ 11. Mr. Warbeyasked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in order to facilitate international agreement on the neutralisation of Laos, he will propose to the other signatories of the Manila Treaty that Laos shall be excluded from the special areas designated in the Protocol to the Treaty.
§ Mr. WarbeyIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Protocol to the Manila Treaty was a concession to the anti-neutrality policy of the late Mr. Dulles? In view of the fact that all parties have now agreed that Laos must be neutral, is it not time that this Protocol which gives the right to one side to intervention was dropped?
§ Mr. HeathI do not believe that the neutralisation of Laos is being hindered by the designation of that country under the Manila Treaty.
§ 12. Mr. Warbeyasked the Lord Privy Seal which countries have now indicated to Her Majesty's Government that they are prepared to take part in an international conference on the situation in Laos.
§ Mr. HeathThe diplomatic discussions which have taken place on this subject are confidential, but, as the House knows, the proposals put to the Soviet Foreign Minister by my noble Friend include one for a conference. If the Soviet reply to these proposals is favourable, it should shortly be possible to issue invitations for such a conference.
§ Mr. WarbeyThe right hon. Gentleman has not answered my Question. Is he aware that if the Government had accepted the advice given by members of the Opposition four months ago that the Geneva Conference should be recalled a great many of the present alarums and excursions would have been avoided? Now that there seems to be hope of this conference coming about and the Americans at long last have given their agreement to it, can he say how soon he hopes that the conference will be called into being?
§ Mr. HeathWe can call this conference into being as soon as the Soviet co-chairman has indicated acceptance of our proposals and the cease-fire is found to be effective by the reconstituted Control Commission. Then the conference can be called.
§ Mr. MayhewHas the right hon. Gentleman seen the hopeful statement in Pravda this morning?
§ Mr. HeathI have seen the statement in Pravda about the proposals we put to the Soviet Government, and I hope it may be taken as an indication of a favourable response.
§ Mr. HealeyNow that the American Government have accepted in principle the idea of an international conference on Laos, will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will not allow disputes about the timing of such a conference to obstruct that peaceful settlement which the Foreign Secretary expressed his desire for the other day?
§ Mr. HeathYes, Sir. As I told the House on Friday, I do not see why the timing should lead to difficulties on the proposals we have put forward. They are quite clear. Both the co-chairmen should call for a cease-fire and the Commission should go to see that that is coming about—as Mr. Nehru indicated, that can be done very quickly—and, as soon as it has confirmed that, the conference can meet.
§ 13. Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a further statement on the progress of the diplomatic discussions with the United States and Soviet Governments about the cessation of military aid and the neutrality of Laos.
§ 16. Mr. de Freitasasked the Lord Privy Seal whether Her Majesty's Government will work towards making Laos into a neutral State guaranteed by the United Nations.
§ Mr. HeathHer Majesty's Government's policy is to work for a free and neutral Laos and, as the House knows, Her Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow transmitted new proposals to the Soviet Government on 23rd March aimed at a settlement of this whole question. As to ways in which neutrality might be guaranteed, this is a matter for discussion with all the other parties concerned. We hope that the Soviet Government will soon agree to our proposals, which are designed to lead to a Conference at which this could be decided.
§ Mr. de FreitasDoes the Lord Privy Seal realise that the best chance of a neutral Laos is under a leader acceptable to the East, the West and the Laotians, and that Souvanna Phouma seems by far the best bet for that? Will he encourage Prince Souvanna Phouma when he sees him next week to go to Russia after he has been in Europe?
§ Mr. HeathWe have often expressed our view that a broader-based Government is desirable in Laos. As to the form it takes, that is a matter for the Laotians themselves to decide. I understand that Prince Souvanna Phouma is going to visit Moscow after he has been in London.
§ Mr. A. HendersonCan the right hon. Gentleman make clear whether Her Majesty's Government expect to receive 937 a reply from the Soviet Government as the result of the visit this morning by Mr. Gromyko to President Kennedy, or if they still expect a direct reply from Moscow?
§ Mr. HeathIt would be normal for a direct reply to come from Moscow to my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary as the other co-chairman under the Geneva Conference arrangements. Of course, it would be possible for Mr. Gromyko to indicate today to President Kennedy what that reply is. We shall in any case welcome some indication as soon as possible.
§ Mr. RankinIf the right hon. Gentleman really wants a neutral position in Laos, will he urge America as well as Russia to stop sending supplies to carry on the war that is proceeding?
§ Mr. HeathPresident Kennedy has stated that the desire of the American Administration is for a peaceful settlement and a free and neutral Laos.
§ 15. Mr. Healeyasked the Lord Privy Seal to what extent it is Her Majesty's Government's policy to support military intervention by the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation in Laos.
§ Mr. HeathUnder the terms of Article IV in the Manilla Treaty we have an obligation to consult with our partners in the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation if any party or designated State is threatened in any way other than by armed attack. I cannot foretell what action might result from such consultation.
§ Mr. HealeyWhile I do not wish to say anything which would complicate a delicate situation, may I ask the Lord Privy Seal two questions? First, will he answer the question put to him on Friday by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, namely, can he give an unequivocal undertaking that Her Majesty's Government will consult this House before committing British troops to armed action in Laos? Secondly, in view of the fact that the authorities in Vientiane have already admitted spreading false reports about foreign Communist intervention in Laos, will he treat any further reports submitted by the authorities there with the greatest circumspection?
§ Mr. HeathOf course, we shall always want to satisfy ourselves fully about statements of the kind referred to in the last part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. As to the first part, I gave the Leader of the Opposition an assurance on Friday that I would keep the House as fully informed as possible throughout all the developments. That is the fullest assurance I can give.
§ Mr. P. Noel-BakerHas the Lord Privy Seal considered the terms of Articles 52 and 53 of the Chanter which he quoted on Friday, and which say that no enforcement action shall be taken under regional arrangements without the authorisation of the Security Council, and Article 54, which says that the Security Council shall at all times be kept fully informed of activities undertaken or in contemplation under regional arrangements? Can he assure us that that is being done?
§ Mr. HeathYes, Sir. I do not want to enter into an exercise at the Box of counter-Chartermanship, so to speak, but I also call attention to Article 51 of the Charter which sets out the rights of individual and collective defence. As the hon. Member knows, the obligations under the Treaty of Manila so far as the United Nations are concerned are clearly set out in Articles 6 and 4. I am sure the S.E.A.T.O. Powers would wish to observe them.
§ 21. Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will publish the notes exchanged to date between Great Britain and the Soviet Union concerning the Laotian crisis.
§ Mr. HeathIt would be premature to publish these communications, at any rate before the Soviet Government have had time to consider the Note which Her Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow delivered on 23rd March.
§ Mr. DaviesWill the right hon. Gentleman say what attitude the British Government took to the Cambodian suggestion which was made previous to the present suggestions for a conference, when Souvanna Phouma was suggested as the Prime Minister who could best keep the neutrality? What answer did the Government give to the U.S.S.R. and to Cambodia on the Cambodian suggestions?
§ Mr. HeathI have explained to the House that for a long time we have taken the view that the best means of ensuring stability in Laos is to have a broadly based Government, but it must be a matter for the Laotians to decide who the members of that Government will be and who the Prime Minister will be.
§ 22. Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will invite the Government of the People's Republic of China to send representatives to Great Britain now to discuss the Laotian crisis and the need for another international conference at Geneva to review the position and to re-establish neutrality in Laos.
§ Mr. HeathNo, Sir.
Her Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow transmitted new proposals to the Soviet Government, as co-chairman of the Geneva Conference, on 23rd March. If these proposals are agreed and a genuine cease-fire is established in Laos the next step will be to issue invitations to the Conference. The Chinese Government, as a member of the original Geneva Conference, would naturally be invited.
§ Mr. DaviesIs the Minister aware that, while the Chinese Government would naturally he invited, it might help towards peace in that part of the world if Her Majesty's Government took a little initiative and pointed out to the United States that we at least know that 650 million people in China are concerned with what is happening in Indo-China? Might it not be worth while to show our willingness to achieve a neutral Laos, as was suggested by both Sir Anthony Eden and Chou En-lai? Both Sir Anthony Eden and Chou Enlai respected that Treaty.
§ Mr. HeathThe Government have taken a number of initiatives in this matter. It is on our present initiative that we are awaiting a response from the Soviet Government. We do not consider in the present circumstances that the invitation which the hon. Member suggests is one which we should at the moment adopt. President Kennedy has announced that the United States are prepared to take part in a conference in which the original members of the Geneva Conference are present, as well 940 as the additional members suggested by Prince Sihanouk, if that is required.
§ Mr. Harold DaviesIn view of the nature of the reply and the urgency and importance of this matter to the British people, I Shall endeavour under Standing Order No. 9 to get a special adjournment of the House to discuss the question of troops moving to Laos.