§ 16. Lord Balnielasked the Minister of Transport whether he will publish the list of shipyards approved by his Department to which the Cunard Steam-Ship Company are about to send invitations to tender for a new Cunarder.
§ Mr. MarplesThe Cunard Steam-Ship Company will invite tenders from Messrs. John Brown, Cammell Laird, Fairfield, Harland & Wolff, Swan Hunter & Wigham Richardson and Vickers-Armstrongs. I understand that the last two propose to submit a joint tender.
§ Lord BalnielWhile thanking my right hon. Friend for that information, may I ask if he can say whether the Cunard Steam-Ship Company, Limited, in asking these yards to submit tenders, will, in fairness to them, make it clear that as yet no Parliamentary sanction for the expenditure of public money has been granted?
§ Mr. MarplesI think that my hon. Friend will see something happening very soon.
§ 19. Sir J. Vaughan-Morganasked the Minister of Transport whether, before introducing legislation to give a subsidy to the Cunard Company, he will satisfy himself that the company is not a member of any price-fixing association.
§ Mr. MarplesNo, Sir. The Cunard Company, like almost all liner companies, belongs to one or more Shipping Conferences.
§ Sir J. Vaughan-MorganIs not this very unsatisfactory? Is it not wrong that public money should be given to a company which is a member, for example, of the North Atlantic Shipping Conference, which exists to maintain freight and passenger rates across the Atlantic?
§ Mr. MarplesA formal investigation on more than one occasion has confirmed the value to shipowners, shippers and the public of the conference system.
§ Sir J. Vaughan-MorganBy whom were these investigations carried out? Should not the matter be looked at again?
§ Mr. MarplesIt has been looked at. It was quite satisfactory. If my hon. Friend puts down a Question, I will give him full details of the whole inquiry.
§ Sir J. Vaughan-MorganIn view of the very unsatisfactory nature of my right hon. Friend's reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
§ 42. Mr. R. Carrasked the Minister of Transport what requests he has received for a subsidy from shipping companies other than the Cunard Company.
§ Mr. MarplesNone, Sir.
§ Mr. CarrHas my right hon. Friend consulted other shipping companies? If so, can he say whether they agree that if any subsidy is to be given to the shipping industry it is right for it to be concentrated on this one route and this one company?
§ Mr. MarplesThey were seen about this in the early stages and made no comment. But this point forms one of the recommendations in the survey of British shipping which has been sent to me, and we are now discussing it with the General Council of British Shipping.
§ Mr. GrimondWill the right hon. Gentleman qualify that answer? The Government have received constant requests from shipping companies in Scotland, especially from the Orkney Steam Navigation Company. The Government have passed a Measure enabling a subsidy to be provided. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, this Bill having been passed, no comprehensive scheme has so far been produced to give assistance to a shipping company whose services are absolutely essential to some of the people in the North of Scotland? Is he aware that these people will very much resent it if the Government give a large subsidy to the largely luxury traffic across the Atlantic before looking after the needs of people much nearer home?
§ Mr. MarplesQuestions of subsidies for shipping companies in Scotland should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
§ Mr. J. HowardCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether there are any other passenger routes where British passenger liners are subjected to the same degree of subsidised competition as exists on the North Atlantic route?
§ Mr. MarplesThe North Atlantic route is the most heavily subsidised shipping route in the world.
§ 43. Mr. R. Carrasked the Minister of Transport whether, before approving the 363 placing of a contract for a new Cunarder with assistance from public funds, he will satisfy himself that the shipbuilding industry is taking action along the lines of the recent Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Report on the industry.
§ Mr. MarplesThe industry has undertaken to collaborate with the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and my Ministry in implementing the recommendations of this Report, and good progress is being made with the further studies it called for.
§ Mr. CarrWill my right hon. Friend satisfy himself that this collaboration is reaching the stage of practical action before he provides any subsidy?
§ Mr. MarplesYes. My hon. Friend can be assured that we shall press on with the Report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research on the industry.
§ Mr. H. HyndBefore giving any subsidies in this case, will the Minister take care not to offend his hon. Friends, who are against subsidies from public funds in principle, except for their own industries?
§ Mr. MarplesIt ought to be made clear that I cannot give a subsidy. It is this House which will approve the subsidy.
§ Mr. WoodburnCan the Minister say whether there is still no hope of having atomic energy in time for this great venture?
§ Mr. MarplesThere is absolutely no hope at all.
§ 44. Mr. Chatawayasked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to ensure the concentration of the shipbuilding industry into fewer and larger units before he asks for tenders for the new Cunard liners.
§ Mr. MarplesThe yards which will be invited to tender are already large.
§ Mr. ChatawayDoes not my right hon. Friend agree that an element of subsidy is being injected into the shipbuilding industry, and does not he think it reasonable that if they are going to subsidise an industry the Government 364 should take some responsibility for encouraging greater efficiency?
§ Mr. MarplesThe negotiations with the Cunard Company and the Chandos Committee's Report took account of the shipbuilding yards as they then existed, and no representations were made that the shipbuilding yards should be altered. Each of the shipbuilding yards asked to tender is in a place where employment is needed.
§ Mr. StraussIs it the policy of the Government that the shipbuilding industry should be concentrated in a smaller number of larger yards?
§ Mr. MarplesWe had better wait until we see what the Advisory Committee says.
§ Mr. PopplewellCan the Minister say when he expects the return of these tenders?
§ Mr. MarplesI cannot even say at the moment when they are going out.
§ 45. Mr. J. Rodgersasked the Minister of Transport whether he will make it a condition of tenders for the new Cunard liner that they shall only be sent to shipyards in which restrictive practices do not occur.
§ Mr. MarplesCompetition for this order will be very keen, and I do not propose to interfere with the Cunard Company's plans, for the reason my hon. Friend has suggested.
§ Mr. RodgersIs my right hon. Friend aware of the mounting misgivings among the other shipping companies, and also in this House and in the country generally, at the prospect of taxpayers' money being given to one company to produce an obsolescent, if not obsolete, national status symbol? Is not he aware that these misgivings will be translated into resentment if the taxpayers' money is used in shipyards where it will lead to inflated costs, owing to the prevalence of restrictive practices?
§ Mr. MarplesIn the matter of restrictive practices, such as demarcation, the employers and the employees are now getting together in a reasonable spirit, and I do not want to do anything to exacerbate the situation while the negotiations are in progress. As for the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary 365 question, his assessment of the situation does not agree with the recommendations of the Chandos Committee.
§ Lord BalnielDoes my right hon. Friend recollect answering my Question on this subject, when he talked about further developments occurring before very long? Can he give an assurance that these developments will be announced verbally in the House before we rise for Easter?
§ Mr. MarplesMy hon. Friend must wait to see what these developments are.
§ Mr. ShortWill the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many of us believe that the building of this ship will provide a tremendous shot in the arm to the British shipbuilding industry, and that it means a great deal to the shipyards? Will he not be put off by hon. Members opposite, who are quite willing to accept a £200 million a year subsidy for the farmers?
§ 47. Mr. Channonasked the Minister of Transport whether in view of the effect upon trans-Atlantic passenger traffic, he will consult the chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation before final arrangements are made to subsidise the new Cunard liner.
§ Mr. MarplesNo, Sir.
§ Mr. ChannonDoes not my right hon. Friend agree that since British Overseas Airways Corporation made a loss last year and the Cunard Company made a profit, and since to some extent they will be in competition over these routes, it would be advisable to get the views of the Corporation before these arrangements are put into effect?
§ Mr. MarplesI do not think so. The Chandos Committee demonstrated in its recommendations that shipping and air transport were complementary rather than competitive, and that what really happens is that a great number of business people go by air one way and by ship the other way, for health reasons.
§ 49. Mr. Worsleyasked the Minister of Transport what consultations he has had with the Chamber of Shipping on the proposed subsidy for a new Cunarder.
§ Mr. MarplesAt my request, the General Council of British Shipping last June commented on the proposals which 366 the Chandos Committee had made for Government assistance towards the replacement of "Queen Mary". These comments were given in confidence. Subsequently, in its recent survey the General Council included a recommendation bearing on this subject.
§ Mr. WorsleyDo I understand, therefore, from my right hon. Friend that the Chamber of Shipping approves of this subsidy to one line for one venture and feels that this is the best way to help the British shipping industry?
§ Mr. MarplesAs I have said, the comments were made in confidence but in its recent survey, the General Council of British Shipping included as No. 10 of its recommendations one relating to the paying of a subsidy to the Cunard Company. That recommendation is now being discussed.
§ Mr. StraussWill the right hon. Gentleman enlighten us on this side of the House and give us some information about this extraordinary lobby on the benches behind him, which is pretty near widespread, against giving any help towards the building of the liner? We are entirely in the dark as to why there is this sudden opposition to giving a Government subsidy to private industry. There must be something behind it. Could the right hon. Gentleman please tell us?
§ Mr. MarplesIt is not for me to say what motivation my hon. Friends have.