§ 6 and 7. Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for War (1) if he will appoint an independent committee to investigate and report on the training methods applied in the Army, on the methods of obtaining discipline and on the general treatment of the men;
(2) for how many minutes the men remained standing while the officers were permitted to walk on the morning of Tuesday, 14 February, on the Wellington Barracks square; how many regimental sergeant-majors and sergeant-majors were on parade; and what was the purpose of marching the men quickly after they had been standing for a long time.
§ Mr. ProfumoThere have of recent years been a number of investigations into training methods and discipline of the Army, including Sir James Grigg's Advisory Committee on Recruiting. Although the House knows my anxiety not to prejudice our recruiting drive by 1372 allowing outdated practices to persist, I do not consider that yet another independent investigation is needed at present.
As regards the specific incident at Wellington Barracks, to which the hon. Gentleman refers, I cannot give the exact time for which the men remained standing while the officers paced up and down, but it is usually between five and ten minutes, while the men are being inspected by their company commanders. The whole battalion was on parade, so that there was one regimental sergeant-major, two drill sergeants, and five company sergeant-majors in attendance.
§ Mr. Ellis SmithWe will leave the latter part of that reply where it is, because it is secondary compared with the other. Is the Minister aware that it was agreed in this House between the two World Wars that there was need for an investigation of this kind, and a need to put the relationship between officers and other ranks on a more modern basis? Is he aware that Mr. Hore-Belisha, as he then was, was very sympathetic, and that I believe that something would have been done had not the Second World War intervened? Just as we have put Service equipment on a modern basis, has not the time arrived to put the relationship between all these men on a modern basis?
§ Mr. ProfumoI hope that the hon. Member will have read what I said in last week's debate about man management, but as this arises from a specific incident that he has seen fit to bring before the House, I must say that the reputation of the Household Brigade both for prowess and for pageantry is proverbial, and I hope that the hon. Member, who is a shareholder in our national pride, will not, at the same time, seek to tamper with the traditional routine which plays a considerable part in maintaining that tradition.
§ Mr. Ellis SmithI would not have pressed this matter had not the Minister answered as he has done. Is he aware that I stood there and watched all this; that I saw the men standing there for a long time; and that I saw the officers walk about quite at leisure and the big, fat sergeant-major, with a big, out-of-date moustache—which I think is typical of the out-of-date methods still prevalent in the Army?
§ Mr. ProfumoWith the greatest respect, I do not think that I have ever heard such twaddle. I think that I must be allowed to defend the people whom the hon. Member is attacking and, if I may say so, what the hon. Gentleman has said is a lousy imputation on—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Emrys HughesOn a point of order.
§ Mr. Ellis SmithOn a point of order.
§ Mr. Speaker rose—
§ Mr. HughesMay I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether the word "lousy" is a Parliamentary expression?
§ Mr. SpeakerAt the moment, I am on my feet. I do not think that it is a Parliamentary expression. I think that the Minister should choose, if anything, another and more seemly epithet.
§ Mr. ProfumoAt your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, I naturally would like to choose a more seemly phrase—I can produce a more Parliamentary one but I do not think that I could produce a more seemly one. I think that the imputation that has been made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) about this particular warrant officer is totally undeserved.
§ Mr. HughesOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When a word has been de-clared unparliamentary, is it not the usual custom for the Member to withdraw it?
§ Mr. SpeakerI understood the Minister to be withdrawing the epithet, which is what I declared to be unparliamentary. I do not quite understand why the hon. Member did not have the same impression. I thought that he did.
§ Mr. CallaghanFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that we did not get the same impression, because the Minister said that he could not find a more seemly word. That hardly seemed to us to be a withdrawal. Although we are used to these synthetic bursts of indignation from the Minister, could he not conduct these matters on a more appropriate plane?
§ Mr. SpeakerI do not want speeches on this. The question of fact is whether, 1374 aye or no, the Minister withdrew the particular word. I must say that I had the impression that before he said those words the Minister had, in fact, withdrawn the particular epithet—but do let us get on.
§ Mr. ProfumoI withdraw the unparliamentary epithet but not what is behind it, because my indignation is not synthetic. This sergeant-major is a first-class man and the hon. Member ought not to try to cast aspersions on him. If the hon. Member knew more about what was happening, he would know that these parades are carried out before the drill season in order that the whole of the Scots Guards, which has a recruiting record as high as any other in the country, should carry out the duties which it has to undertake.
§ Mr. ShinwellReverting to the question of discipline, I think that the Minister recently observed that when one National Service man was asked whether he would care to volunteer for additional Regular service he said that the trouble was that he objected to being constantly shouted at. Is there not too much of that in the Service?
§ Mr. ProfumoI think that the right hon. Gentleman knows my views about man management. Man management, or discipline, and "bull" are quite different things, and one cannot really have a mumbling sergeant-major on parade. He naturally has to shout.