§ That a sum, not exceeding £387,960,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962, for expenditure in respect of Air Services. viz.:—
| Vote | £ | |
| 1. | Pay, &c., of the Air Force | 119,400,000 |
| 2. | Reserve and Auxiliary Services | 769,900 |
| 7. | Aircraft and Stores | 224,700,000 |
| 8. | Works and Lands | 38,900,000 |
| 9. | Miscellaneous Effective Services | 4,190,000 |
| 11. | Additional Married Quarters | 100 |
| £387,960.000 |
§ Question put:—
§ Mr. SwinglerOn a point of order, Sir Gordon, about your putting the next Question. You will have noticed that on the Order Paper there are a number of Motions in the names of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee to reduce certain Civil Estimates Votes. I should like to ask you, before the Question is put, whether, as there has been no discussion and no opportunity has been given for any discussion on the Motions, you will put the Questions on the Civil Estimates in such a way that hon. Members who wish to test the opinion of the Committee on these Motions will be able to challenge the appropriate Vote.
§ The ChairmanBy Standing Order No. 16 I am allowed only to put the totals.
§ Mr. SwinglerFurther to that point of order, Sir Gordon. Will you tell the Committee whether it is laid down in Standing Order No. 16 that the Supplementary Civil Estimates must be put en bloc? Am I not right in thinking that in Standing Order—
§ The ChairmanOrder. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman.
The Committee proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. Swingler(seated and covered): Further to the point of order, Sir Gordon. Is it not true that Standing 1533 Order No. 16 lays down that when the Guillotine falls the Question on Civil Estimates and Service Estimates shall be put severally from the Chair but that it does not state whether the Questions should be put for the whole of the Estimates in one block or whether the classes of Estimates can be put separately? I am asking you, Sir Gordon, whether as the hon. Members who tabled the Motions have been debarred from discussing them, they will have an opportunity to test the opinion of the Committee on the individual Votes. Is that possible?
§ The ChairmanI cannot do that. I have to put the totals.
§ Mr. SwinglerI shall raise the matter later, Sir Gordon.
§ Mr. B. T. Parkin (Paddington, North)(seated and covered): On a point of order. Is it your Ruling, Sir Gordon, that you are unable to deal with the point of order raised by my hon. Friend now? Do I gather that you are ruling that you are unable to deal with it until you have actually put the Question on the Civil Estimates?
§ The ChairmanI did not rule that I was unable to deal with it. I dealt with it.
§ Mr. ParkinIn that case, Sir Gordon, may I ask you to clarify your Ruling? Is it not true that the Guillotine, while removing the right to speak, does not remove the right to vote on any Question put to the House or the Committee?
§ The ChairmanOf course, the hon. Member has a right to vote.
§ Mr. ParkinIn that case, and further to your Ruling, may I have your guid
§ ance, Sir Gordon? How is it possible to vote against a section of the Estimates of Civil Departments against which one wishes to make a protest?
§ The ChairmanThe hon. Member can only vote for or against the Question as put.
§ Mr. SwinglerFurther to that point of order. Is it your Ruling that an hon. Member who wishes to challenge an individual item of the Civil Supplementary Estimates is compelled by your Ruling to vote against the whole of the expenditure in the Civil Estimates?
§ The ChairmanIt does not depend on my Ruling at all. It depends on Standing Order No. 16.
§ Mr. SwinglerFurther to that point of order. Is it not true that Standing Order No. 16 does not lay down that the Chairman cannot put individual items to the Committee, and that there is nothing in Standing Order No. 16 that would prevent the Chairman from putting the classes of Votes to the Committee where hon. Members have given notice that they wished to challenge some of these Votes?
§ The ChairmanI have explained to the hon. Member that Standing Order No. 16 says that I must put the total.
§ Mr. SwinglerMay I give you notice, Sir Gordon, that I shall raise this point again, because I cannot find in Standing Order No. 16 any such words? Therefore, I wish to give notice that I will raise this after the Division.
The Committee divided: Ayes 208, Noes 2.
| Duthie, Sir William | Kershaw, Anthony | Proudfoot, Wilfred |
| Eden, John | Kirk, Peter | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Kitson, Timothy | Ramsden, James |
| Elliott, R.W.(Nwcstle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Lambton, Viscount | Rawlinson, Peter |
| Emery, Peter | Leavey, J. A. | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin |
| Farey-Jones, F. W. | Leburn, Gilmour | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Farr, John | Linstead, Sir Hugh | Renton, David |
| Finlay, Graeme | Litchfield, Capt. John | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas |
| Fisher, Nigel | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Longbottom, Charies | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) |
| Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. | Longden, Gilbert | Roots, William |
| Gammans, Lady | Loveys, Walter H. | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Gardner, Edward | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn | Shaw, M. |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Shepherd, William |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | MacArthur, Ian | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Goodhart, Philip | McLaren, Martin | Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher |
| Goodhew, Victor | McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Gower, Raymond | McLean, Neil (Inverness) | Speir, Rupert |
| Grant, Rt. Hon. William | MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty) | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. | McMaster, Stanley R. | Stodart, J. A. |
| Green. Alan | Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Maddan, Martin | Storey, Sir Samuel |
| Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) | Maginnis, John E. | Studhoime, Sir Henry |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | Maitland, Sir John | Teeling, William |
| Harvie Anderson, Miss | Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Hay, John | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Heald, R. Hon. Sir Lionel | Marshall, Douglas | Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward | Marten, Neil | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Mathew, Robert (Honiton) | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| Henderson-Stewart, Sir James | Matthews, Gorgon (Meriden) | Turner, Colin |
| Hendry, Forbes | Mawby, Ray | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Hicks Beach, Maj. W. | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John |
| Hirst, Geoffrey | Mills, Stratton | Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis |
| Hobson, John | Montgomery, Fergus | Wade, Donald |
| Hocking, Philip N. | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Holland, Philip | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Wall, Patrick |
| Hollingworth, John | Nabarro, Gerald | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Holt, Arthur | Nerve, Airey | Webster, David |
| Hopkins, Alan | Noble, Michael | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Howard, John (Southampton, Test) | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Orr, Capt. L P. S. | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) | |
| Hughes-Young, Michael | Partridge, E. | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Hulbert, Sir Norman | Pearson, Francs (Clitheroe) | Wise, A. R. |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Peel, John | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Irvine, Bryant Gorman (Rye) | Piokthorn, Sir Kenneth | Woodhouse, C. M. |
| Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Pilkington, Sir Richard | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Jennings, J. C. | Pitman, I. J. | Woollam, John |
| Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Pitt, Miss Edith | Worsley, Marcus |
| Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Pott, percivall | |
| Kerans, Cdr. J. S. | Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Kerby, Capt. Henry | Prior, J. M. L. | Mr. Chichester-Clark and |
| Kerr, Sir Hamilton | Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho | Mr. Whitelaw. |
| NOES | |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) | Mr. Emrys Hughes and— |
| Mr. Baxter. |