HC Deb 02 March 1961 vol 635 cc1919-28

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. — [Colonel J. H. Harrison]

12.1 a.m.

Mr, R. T. Paget (Northampton)

I think that this is the first occasion during the sixteen years that I have been a Member of the House on which I have asked Mr. Speaker whether I might have the opportunity to raise something on the ordinary Adjournment of the House. I do so only—and I apologise to the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary for keeping her up late for the purpose—because I feel that in the special circumstances of the case which has arisen I should not be doing my duty as a Member of the House if I were to allow the matter to go without protest.

Years ago, when I was first elected, there was a Labour Government. At that time, I started in my constituency the practice of going there every week to be available for anyone who wished to see me. At that time, after the war, much rule was by regulation. In every complex and developed society, rule by regulation, rule by official—beaurocracy, if one likes to call it that—is a necessity of the system. It seemed to me then that one of the values of the single-Member constituency was that, under this form of government, every citizen had a means of taking his grievance over the head of the beaurocrat to the source from which power came.

That made this form of government far more acceptable, and also it was in a great sense of value to the Ministries themselves, for they found that there was someone who could explain what they were doing. As the practice went on, more and more people coming to see me came because the various Ministries in Northampton had said to them, "If you do not think this is right, go and see your Member about it, and he will explain it." It was in those circumstances that they came. During those years, a mutual confidence was built up between the local officials in Northampton, the officials of the Ministries, and myself.

When we ceased to be the Government, I continued my practice. It was a completely non-party service. I have never asked the party affiliation of any- one who come to see me. Indeed, one of the earliest to call upon me was the local agent of the Conservative Party. As a disabled ex-Service man he said that he was entitled to one of the surplus cars that were available so that he could more efficiently do his job of turning me out, and I was very delighted to be able to obtain him that car.

In the course of one of my normal weekly sessions, a Mr. Len Piggott, a retired schoolmaster and a very distinguished citizen of Northampton, brought a Mr. Finney to see me. He is a disabled ex-Service man and, by reason of his disability, was no longer able to drive a car or an invalid carriage himself. He had reached the stage where he had to have a driver. He had proposed a driver. The Ministry of Pensions had seen the driver and approved him. The Ministry of Health had not seen the driver and declined to approve him. I made inquiries. I talked to the proposed driver, and I wrote to the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health. She considered my representation, the decision of the Ministry of Health was changed, and the proposed driver was accepted. For that, I thank her and the Ministry. I think that it illustrates, perhaps, to some degree the sort of service which a Member can do not only to the constituent, but to the Ministry.

Having done this, on 27th January last, which was a Friday, I was told that the car for my constituent had arrived at the garage in Northampton, and I was asked if I could do anything to help him get it. I rang up the Ministry and said, "I am told that this car has arrived. Is there anything holding it up? Can I be any help? Please let me know." On the Monday, when I arrived at the House, there was a message to telephone a civil servant at the Ministry. Of course, I will not mention his name. I did telephone, and he told me that I was mistaken in thinking that the car at the garage was for Mr. Finney. It was for somebody else.

This official then said that Mr. Finney's car was, in fact, ready for delivery at Birmingham. It was a Morris Minor, at Morris's at Birmingham. I asked him how long it would take. "Well, the garage, which is our agent, has to test and service it," he said. "Two or three weeks." I said, "That seems rather a long time. I have not got my papers with me. Could you let me know the name of the garage? I probably know them. I will ring them up and see if they can do it a bit quicker." He replied, "Certainly. I have not got my papers, either. I will telephone you back."

No conversation could have been more friendly. He did not telephone me back, and before leaving the House, after having waited some two hours, I telephoned again and was told that he had gone out. I telephoned again next morning, and was then told that he had consulted the Minister, or the hon. Lady—I am not certain which—and he was instructed that it was undesirable for a Member of Parliament to interfere in an individual case with regard to the delivery and that he was instructed not to give me the name of the garage. Frankly, I was very angry indeed, and I feel sure that if those instructions were given they were given under a misapprehension as to what had happened.

As I say, I was very angry indeed. I put down a Question, which is a thing that I do not think I have done in relation to an individual case in ten years, because I believe in doing things quietly and by negotiation and working with Ministries instead of against them. In this Question I asked why I had been refused the name of the garage and I wrote to the Minister saying that in the sixteen years that I had been a Member of Parliament I had never been treated with such discourtesy. That, I think, is absolutely true.

The Minister proceeded to answer my Question by saying that the garage had acted as his agents and that any shortcomings on their part should be investigated and rectified by him. I had not suggested that there had been the slightest shortcoming by the garage and, therefore, I regarded that answer as highly unsatisfactory.

I then asked Mr. Speaker if I might raise this matter on the Adjournment, and when Mr. Speaker granted me the Adjournment to do so, I wrote to the Minister saying that as I considered that I had been the victim of a grave personal discourtesy I hoped he would be here to answer. Since then he has come to see me and has written to me explaining that he intended no personal discourtesy, and, of course, I accept that.

To return to what has happened. not only do I think that this was extremely discourteous; I also think that it was extremely silly. Does anybody imagine that it took me any time at all to find out the name of the garage? I found out which garage it was; the people there were friends of mine. I have been in Northampton for a long time and there are not many people in Northampton who are not friends either of myself or of my father.

The Derngate Motor Co. Ltd., I think, qualifies under both those categories. I wrote to the Derngate Motor Co. Ltd. and said what had happened, and asked if the matter could be expedited. Then I got what, perhaps, to my suspicious mind, was an explanation of the extraordinary way in which I had been treated. The Derngate Motor Co. wrote to me on 10th February, and I should like to emphasise this and the other dates. It was on 30th January—that is, eight days before—that I had been told by the Ministry that this car was ready and waiting in Birmingham, and that it would take the garage two to three weeks to deliver it. On 10th February—that is, ten days later—the motor company wrote to me and, after explaining the situation most courteously and in a friendly way, as it always does, said: In an effort to assist you in this matter we have this morning telephoned Morris Motors to see if they can give us any pre-advice, but although they say Mr. Finney is on their list for a vehicle in the current contract it is not yet ready for delivery. So what I had been told ten days before that was untrue. That may be the explanation why I was refused the name of the garage.

The Derngate Motor Co. Ltd., again most courteously, wrote to me on 22nd February to say that it had heard that the car was available, and collected it at once. The garage had serviced it at once, and tested it at once, and within two days, on 24th February, had delivered it to Mr. Finney.

The result is that in two days they had done what the Ministry told me would take two and a half weeks. They are greatly to be congratulated. There has never been any suggestion that I have criticised them. They could not have been more helpful or more expeditious, and they are a most excellent firm. My complaint has been with the Ministry and about the way I have been treated, first, by being told what was untrue, and then by being absurdly refused the name of the garage when I asked for it.

I again apologise, because I am sure it is not the hon. Lady's fault, that she should be kept here late at night to hear this. I repeat—this is the last thing I have to say—that I do not feel that I should be doing my duty to the office of a Member of Parliament if I allowed this sort of treatment to pass with protest through the machinery which is provided to us for this purpose. Therefore, for the first time since I became a Member of Parliament—because in all the years that I have been in Parliament I have never been treated like this and have never had this sort of trouble before—I have asked for the Adjournment to make this protest.

12.17 a.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt)

I would not for a moment quarrel with the way in which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) began this debate, when he stressed his belief that every citizen has the right to take his grievance over the heads of the bureaucrats to the source from which the power came. That I support wholeheartedly.

I quite understand the system by which the hon. and learned Gentleman has, over the years, run his advice bureau—or "surgery", as some Members of Parliament call it—in order to make himself available to those of his constituents who wish to ventilate a grievance. Again, I understand and know that it is fairly common practice for Members of Parliament to make contact with local offices of Government Departments in order to investigate particular local complaints, but what has happened in this case is, I think, a little different.

I have tried most carefully to check on the details, not always easy when some part of the affair took place over the telephone, but I am aware, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, that he phoned my Department towards the end of January to ask whether the car which he understood was already in Northampton was for the pensioner whom he wished to help. Inquiries had, of course, to be made, and it was subsequently explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the one already in Northampton was not allocated to his constituent, Mr. Finney—I think that I may mention his name as the hon. and learned Gentleman has done so. Then, I am informed, the hon. and learned Gentleman was advised that Mr. Finney's car was still on the assembly line at Cowley.

It was also explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman that after it had been finished the car would have to be inspected and then delivered to the agent—that is, the Morris agent—who would conduct the usual Checking which is done on every car before it is finally delivered to the purchaser. Normally, all this process—it is not just the two or three days that the car might be in the hands of the Morris agent, as the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to assume—takes two to three weeks. I understand that the hon. and learned Gentleman then expressed himself very firmly, as he has already told the House tonight, and said that this was much too long a time and asked whether he might be given the name of the garage.

The matter was referred to me and, after considering it, I eventually decided—and I take responsibility for this—that we could not give the name of the private garage which would be delivering this motor car to the hon. and learned Gentleman's constituent. I should explain that these are local garages. The 'people we choose are usually the nearest Morris agents to the pensioner who is to receive the car. In this respect, it is rather different from any contact that a Member of Parliament might have with the local office of a Government Department.

The garage here was no part of a Government Department. I think that although most of us have occasion to contact local offices of Government Departments and, indeed, happily establish good local relations which enable us to get our constituency problems dealt with perhaps with less delay than by going through a central Department of that Ministry, it is also, in some cases, kinder to the local people who like to feel that the Member is not going over their heads.

This case, I feel, was quite different in that it was a private garage and I do not think that any of us would wish to feed that a private garage or any private organisation was put under pressure when, in fact, it should be the Government Department concerned, with the responsibility, which should pursue the matter if there is any cause or question of delay.

What followed next was that the hon. and learned Gentleman, as he says, wrote to my right hon. Friend and tabled a Question. My right hon. Friend, in replying to him, said: I am very sorry that you did not have the reply on Monday which you were promised. I am also sorry it, in the first telephone conversation, the difficulty of disclosing the name of the garage concerned was not mentioned. I do think, however, that my Department ought not to give the name of a garage in such circumstances, even to one of my fellow Members. The garage are merely agents carrying out a specific contract with me and if they do not do it properly, or if there is some complaint about the terms of the arrangement I have made, then I ought to be answerable and to set it to rights. It would be unfair to the garage if any shortcomings were visited on them directly, or if they were subject to requests from third parties. My right hon. Friend then went on to say that either he or I would, of course, always give the promptest attention to any complaint brought to our notice.

Mr. Paget

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. She does not seem to understand that never at any point was there the remotest suggestion of a complaint about the garage. Equally, on the first conversation there was no kind of complaint about delay. All I said was that two or three weeks seemed rather a long time and that I would ring the garage and see if I could get it to be a bit quicker.

Miss Pitt

I fully understand, having heard the hon. and learned Gentleman tonight. I think that there has been a misunderstanding in the past and, just as my right hon. Friend expressed his regret in the letter which I have just read to the House, so I would add mine that there should have been this misunderstanding. I very much regret such a misunderstanding in connection with any social matter where we are trying, to give service to a pensioner, or where an hon. Member is trying to give service to a constituent.

Following on from that, even though there has been this misunderstanding, I think that the hon. and learned Member will agree with me that it would not be fair if individual private agents like these were to be under pressure. All hon. Members are equally interested to advance the cause of their constituents and certainly have the causes of their constituents at heart.

I would like to interpolate here that we have so far had about 1,500 applications for the Mini-Minor cars and also about 300 or 400 requests for different degrees of priority. I am most anxious—and, again, I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman agrees with me—that it should not be said by anyone, perhaps not having the knowledge of the facts as he and I have, that someone could obtain his vehicle after intervention by a Member of Parliament which had ensured priority. I know that that was not the hon. and learned Member's intention, but that was at the back of my mind in making the decision.

Mr. Paget

The hon. Lady must realise that there was no question about that. I did not raise the matter until the car was ready. It was only at that point that I thought that the personal contacts which we all have—"pressure" is not the right word—could help the matter on.

Miss Pitt

My information is that the car was not then ready. In fact, it had not left the car works and, on the advice obtained in my Department, could not have been ready. We had to do a lot of telephoning at that stage and we found that the car was still on the assembly line and it was then that it appeared that the hon. and learned Member was to press this case. I would willingly have taken it up with him if he had sent me a note about it.

However, as I have said, it was a matter of regret that the hon. and learned Member should have felt that at some stage he had been treated with discourtesy. That was certainly not the intention of my right hon. Friend, or myself, or my Department.

The car in question, as the hon. and learned Member knows, was delivered on Monday of this week, 27th February. Having checked on it, I understand that on 10th February this vehicle was handed over to the War Office inspectorate which deals with all cars on our behalf in Cowley where it has resident inspectors. It was subsequently collected by the delivery agent and it arrived in Northampton on 23rd February, which accords with the hon. and learned Member's information.

From then on it had the double check which was explained on the telephone. First, the garage itself gave it the normal check which is given to any car, whether for a war pensioner or anyone else—bolts and nuts being tightened up, and so on. There then followed the extra check by the technical officer of my Ministry which is given to make sure that the car is in order before it is handed over to a disabled pensioner either to drive himself or, as in this case, to be driven by a nominated driver on his behalf.

The hon. and learned Member was kind enough to thank me for something which I did to ensure that in this case a nominated driver might, in fact, drive the vehicle. I should like to assure him that that is what I would wish to do—not to change a decision every time, but myself to be able to handle any matter where he felt it was not proceeding smoothly or there was undue delay or that even a wrong decision had been taken. I am only sorry that he did not make contact with me personally in the first place. I should still have had to take time to make inquiries, but I hope that he will never feel any hesitation whatever in coming to me direct if I can help in any case in the future.

Mr. Paget

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady. She will, of course, appreciate that I did telephone to her and I then got a message as a result of which I telephoned the civil servant.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Twelve o'clock.