HC Deb 27 June 1961 vol 643 cc205-9
Mr. Callaghan

On a point of order. May I put a point to you, Mr. Speaker, about Questions to the Prime Minister? You will remember, Sir, that, last Thursday, after some confusion, the Prime Minister undertook to reply to a further Question on the supply of arms to Angola. Such a question is on the Order Paper this afternoon. In view of the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade seemed to presage or foretell a change in policy when he said that the supply of arms had been suspended, may we ask whether you, Sir, have had a request from the Prime Minister to allow him to answer the Question? If not, how does he propose to fulfil his promise?

Mr. Speaker

I have had no request. All that has been dealt with. We are now dealing with a Private Notice Question.

Mr. Callaghan

With respect Sir, I think that we are still on Questions, even though a Private Notice Question has been asked. I am not entitled to ask the Prime Minister the question except through you, Sir, but does he think that he is discharging his responsibilities when he sits there with a cynical smile on his face, in view of the very great disquiet that there is in the country on this issue?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman knows—and I have to adhere to it—that the rule as far as the Chair is concerned is that, if there is no application to answer a Question, that concludes the matter.

Mr. G. Brown

May I ask for your guidance on this, Mr. Speaker? The other day, after a number of supplementary questions which the Prime Minister showed every sign of taking seriously, we had a firm promise from him that, if a Question in specific terms which he identified and asked for were put down to him, he would answer it.

Today, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade slipped in at the end of an Answer a phrase which sounded like a major change of policy. Although the Question for which the Prime Minister asked was tabled in the terms which he indicated, he has sought no opportunity to answer it. Since we are clearly being treated Ito more evasion by the Prime Minister, may I ask you, Sir, whether we on this side may have some help from the Chair in dealing with this reprehensible conduct of the Prime Minister?

Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Member asks for my guidance. I am timorous about the phrase, because I am here not to give guidance, but to rule when questions arise for decision. I am sure that all the right hon. Member has been saying will have been heard. In so far as the position of the Chair is concerned, I have already indicated what it is. I cannot go further about it.

Mr, Callaghan

Mr. Speaker—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] In that case, may I move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the refusal of the Prime Minister to announce that a change of Government policy has been made in the supply of arms to Portugal for use in Angola? If you will give me 30 seconds, Mr. Speaker, I will try to draft the Motion.

Mr. Gardner

On a point of order. Is it right, Mr. Speaker, that the business of this House should be held up while hon. Members are writing as well as speaking?

Mr. Speaker

It is not right that the business of the House should be held up, but some amount of mutual tolerance seems to be advisable. One of the matters with which I am concerned is that the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) should not be made to write so fast that I will have difficulty in reading the Motion.

The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the refusal of the Prime Minister to announce that a change of Government policy has been made in the supply of arms to Portugal for use in Angola. I cannot consistently with precedent accede to that application. Refusal of information of that kind is not a ground for doing so.

Mr. Callaghan

I would not presume to argue with you, Mr. Speaker, on this issue—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] I should think that hon. Members on the benches opposite might soon recognise that our feelings are directed against the Prime Minister and not Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

May I ask what the hon. Member is doing? If he is not addressing me on a point of order, I cannot let him make a speech.

Mr. Callaghan

The only point of order on which I want to address you, Mr. Speaker, is to say that there is an instinct in the British people which, I very much regret, is not represented by the Prime Minister.

Mr. Speaker

I deplore the raising of supposed points of order which are not points of order.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

On that point of order—[HON. MEMBERS: "It was not a point of order."] May I now raise a point of order with you, Mr. Speaker? Is it not the case that when right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench wish to raise a supplementary question on an Answer from the Treasury Bench, they usually manage somehow to catch your eye, and that, when this Question arose and the Answer was given, no supplementary question was raised by the Opposition Front Bench because its occupants were all asleep, and that that is the reason why this demonstration has taken place?

Mr. Speaker

It cannot be further to the point of order. It was not one.

Mr. Hobson

Further to that point of order—

Mr. Speaker

It was not a point of order.

Mr. Hobson

On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understood you to rule that you could not grant the Adjournment of the House because the refusal of information was not a matter which could be dealt with in that manner. As I understood it, there had never been a refusal, because there had never been a request for information.

Mr. Speaker

In refusing applications of that kind, I do not attempt to state more than one sufficient reason for declining the application.

Mr. Callaghan

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

Further to what point of order?

Mr. Callaghan

Further to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison). In case there has been any misunderstanding in anybody else's mind, would you allow me to put it to you that I was not asking for a debate on the refusal of the Government to give information, but for a debate on the refusal of the Prime Minister to fulfil his promise that he would answer the Question?

Mr. Speaker

Order. I ruled on the Motion which the hon. Member submitted to me.

Mr. Brockway

I apologise, Mr. Speaker; I do not want to delay proceedings or be inconsiderate to yourself. The point which has been discussed arose out of an Answer to a Question by me. Would you be prepared, Mr. Speaker, to accept a Motion for the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the announcement by the Government of a changed policy in relation to the sale of arms to Portugal?

Mr. W. Yates

On a point of order. May I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that back bench Members have been put in difficulty on a point like this on a previous occasion, which you probably recall, over Cyprus. Although there were two applications to you, the Government Front Bench was listening to the debate and finally agreed to make a statement at ten o'clock, which helped the House and helped business.

Mr. Speaker

I do not know what the hon. Member is talking about. The present situation is that an application has been made to me to permit the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) to move the Adjournment of the House pursuant to Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the announcement by the Government of a changed policy in relation to the sale of arms to Portugal. I cannot accept that. I do not regard it as definite and I do not regard it as urgent in the circumstances.

Mr. Callaghan

Why does not the Prime Minister answer?

Mr. Mason

It would be much easier for everybody if he did.

Mr. Brockway

I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the statement by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, which was made in answer to a Question by me, that the sale of arms to Portugal had been suspended—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I cannot allow the hon. Member to make speeches. I understand what the application is founded on and I have it in mind.