§ 47. Mr. Dugdaleasked the Prime Minister what directions he has given to the Service Departments and the Board of Trade with reference to the sale of armaments to foreign countries.
§ The Prime MinisterAll proposed sales are examined by the Government Departments concerned and they are authorised only if they are in accordance with Her Maejsty's Government's policy.
§ Mr. DugdaleIs the Prime Minister happy that Her Majesty's Government are willing to sell ships to Portugal at a moment when Africans are being driven out of their homes by fire in Angola and when Portuguese soldiers—brave Portuguese soldiers—are killing men, women and children? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the time has come for Her Majesty's Government to give a lead to other N.A.T.O. countries in withholding arms from Portugal so long as these conditions continue to exist in Angola?
§ The Prime MinisterThe sale of these ships was negotiated some time ago. They are now in British yards and being refitted. I do not think that it would be right to cancel this contract. These ships assist the Portuguese Navy to meet its N.A.T.O. obligations.
§ Mr. GaitskellIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Norwegian Government, which is also a member of N.A.T.O., has refused to sell arms and ammunition to the Portuguese Government because of what is happening in Angola? Would not it be a good thing if Her Majesty's Government were to follow suit?
§ The Prime MinisterI have referred to the case of these ships. I cannot see that they can have any great effect on the sad situation in Angola. I do not know what other armaments have been concerned.
§ Mr. AwberyIs the Prime Minister aware that the consciences of Christian people in this country have been stirred very considerably and that they feel that those who hand the weapons to the people who use them are equally guilty of the crime which is committed by those who use the weapons?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not think that the existence of these ships will have any great effect on what the hon. Gentleman fears. Of course, we share the deep regret about the situation in Angola, but I do not think that it would be right to cancel the contract.
§ Mr. CallaghanIs the Prime Minister aware that if he reads the Question he will see that it is about armaments? Does he know, apart from the sale of these frigates, that I was given an Answer last Monday by the President of the Board of Trade stating that he refused to stop the export of arms and ammunition to Portugal, as I specifically asked him to do, in the present situation where it is intended that they shall be used in Angola and Mozambique? Is he aware that that is the case, that I am giving him facts and that that is the Answer I received? May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will leave the question of the sale of the frigates on which he has concentrated and stop the sale of arms and ammunition?
§ The Prime MinisterIf that question were put on the Order Paper, of course I should try to answer it—[HON. MEMBERS: "It was."]—I answered the general question. The Question is a general question—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—referring to the sale of armaments to any country in the world. I answered that in a form which is true—that proposed sales are governed by the Government Department concerned. Now, in the supplementary questions there has arisen the question of these warships with which I dealt. If a specific Question is put down about the sale of other kinds of arms to Portugal I will try to answer it.
§ Mr. GaitskellI do not think that the Prime Minister can have heard what my hon. Friend said. He pointed out that he had put down a Question, that he had asked a Question of the President of the Board of Trade, and that the President had refused to stop the sale of arms and ammunition to the Portuguese Government. Will the Prime Minister please countermand what the President said?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir.
§ Mr. GaitskellIn that case, are we to assume that the Prime Minister, in endorsing the sale of arms and ammunition to Portugal, is giving the support of Her Majesty's Government to what is happening in Angola? That is precisely what the world in general will assume.
§ The Prime MinisterI, of course, was not aware of the particular Question raised with the Board of Trade. If it is put to me I shall do my best to look into it again. I was asked in general terms haw we organise—and the right hon. Gentleman probably knows. There is an inter-Departmental committee in which all questions of sales to foreign countries are considered. Then the question about the sale of these frigates was brought in and I answered that question. My attention has been drawn to another point and I shall look at that.
§ Mr. W. YatesIs my right hon. Friend aware that the sort of moral leadership that we are supposed to be showing was singularly lacking in that reply?
§ Mr. DugdaleIn view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of the Prime Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.