HC Deb 21 June 1961 vol 642 cc1453-6
20. Mr. G. Thomas

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the danger to schoolchildren crossing the north-eastern end of Cathedral Road, Cardiff, where, despite a continuous stream of fast-moving traffic, there are no traffic lights, no zebra crossing and no school traffic warden to see children across the road; and what steps he proposes to take to protect children who have to cross this main road.

Mr. Hay

Responsibility in this matter lies with the Cardiff County Borough Council as the highway authority. There are already three central islands in the road and traffic signals at its southern end. Traffic signals are to be installed at the Cardiff Road junction and I am advised that the council proposes that two more central islands should be provided. Provision of a school crossing patrol is a matter for the local education authority.

Mr. Thomas

Is the Minister aware that this shuffling off of responsibility is not good enough? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It certainly is not good enough. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that since this Question has been on the Order Paper there has been another accident at the spot, that people in the area are thoroughly frightened about the safety of their children and that the traffic lights to which he refers are three-quarters of a mile to a mile away from the spot to which the Question refers? Will he stir up the Cardiff authority on this question to ensure that children are given the protection of a traffic controller, as is so urgently necessary?

Mr. Hay

It is hard enough to be attacked for things for which we are responsible. It is a little harder to be attacked for things for which we have no responsibility at all. All I can say is that I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman's remarks are brought to the attention of the Cardiff County Borough Council.

Mr. S. Silverman

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is not the House being put in a rather difficult position? If the Minister has no responsibility he ought not to answer, and if he has a responsibility he ought not to disclaim it. What is the position? Is it not right that the House should know whether the Minister is accepting responsibility or not?

Mr. Speaker

I have heard what the Minister said. I cannot correct him if he is wrongly declining responsibility. I shall have to ascertain whether the Question is rightly on the Order Paper.

Mr. Mellish

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a fact that it has been the custom of the House to ask Ministers Questions of this kind? Often the answer is that county councils and so on will have their attention called to the matter; but it has become the custom of the House for hon. Members to put Questions of this kind directly to Ministers.

Mr. Speaker

It is not the custom to put down a Question when no Ministerial responsibility is involved.

Mr. Popplewell

Is not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary misleading the House? Can a local authority establish a zebra crossing or anything else without the Minister's permission? Is it not a fact that before a local authority can establish a zebra crossing or anything that gives a right of way for pedestrians it must receive the consent of the Minister? Is not the Minister rather misleading the House when he says that he has no responsibility? In Newcastle we have made several requests to the Minister for this type of crossing, and the Minister simply refuses to allow us to do anything in Northumberland Street or anywhere else.

Mr. Thomas

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a fact that the Minister's Department has to be consulted on the question of road safety? If it has to be consulted, surely it must bear some responsibility for the advice which is given? Answer!

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman must not command me to answer. He rose to a point of order.

Mr. Callaghan

Might I ask the Minister why the House of Commons every year agrees to a Vote on road safety if he disclaims responsibility for answering the Question?

Mr. Hay

With your permission and that of the House, Mr. Speaker; the position simply' is that that answer to the hon. Member was phrased in accordance with the question which was asked. He was trying to blame my right hon. Friend and his Department for inaction in this matter, and it was my purpose to point out that we have no direct responsibility, since Cardiff is its own highway authority. Our advice is often asked for, of course, and freely given.

Mr. Popplewell

On a point of order. I put a question to the Minister suggesting that he had responsibility. He has to give permission to local authorities before they can do anything.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) made an assertion, a fraction of which was in interrogatory form, but I am afraid that I lost it in the midst of the discussion.

Mr. S. Silverman

On a point of order. Is there not all the difference in the world between no responsibility and responsibility although indirect? If the Minister accepts indirect responsibility, he ought not to say that he is not responsible, for that is leaving the House in an impossible position.

Mr. Speaker

I never rule about Ministerial responsibility. What we do at the Table is take the declaration of the Minister about it. Hon. Members can take up the matter with the Minister at some time if they want to do so.

Mr. Thomas

I apologise to you, Mr. Speaker. It was not you I was seeking to put under pressure.

21. Mr. G. Thomas

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will publish the report of his inspector on his recent investigation into the danger to pedestrians and especially to school chlidren, who wish to cross the road at the junction of Lower Cathedral Road, Ninian Park Road and Clare Road, Cardiff; and whether he will make a statement on this report.

Mr. Hay

Both our divisional road engineer and the local safety officer have now made careful observations of the conditions at these junctions. They are agreed that the junctions do not present any special danger for school children or other pedestrians.

Mr. Thomas

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that we shall remind him of those words in days to come?

Mr. Hay

I will remember.

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