HC Deb 19 June 1961 vol 642 cc928-31
7. Mr. S. Silverman

asked the Lord Privy Seal what proposals Her Majesty's Government have recently made or will make to their North Atlantic Treaty Organisation allies to secure a joint plan for the future status of Berlin.

27. Mr. Rankin

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will undertake that the degree to which United Kingdom rights in West Berlin will be maintained will be decided independently of the decisions taken by other interested Powers.

Mr. Heath

The North Atlantic Council discussed the question of Berlin as recently as last May, in Oslo. They were all agreed that a peaceful and just solution for the problem of Germany including Berlin is to be found only on the basis of self-determination. The Western peace plan, put forward in 1959, provides for such a solution. Her Majesty's Government share their rights and responsibilities in Berlin with other Powers, and any action to uphold their rights and fulfil their responsibilities will be taken in concert with those Powers, as hitherto.

Mr. Silverman

Is that the whole of the constructive contribution which Her Majesty's Government at this time have to make? Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the present position of Berlin can remain until there is a reunification of Germany? Is that a realistic approach? Do the Government believe that the state of Berlin cannot remain indefinitely as it is now? If they are not satisfied with the Russian proposal, why do they not take the initiative themselves and make some constructive proposals of their own?

Mr. Heath

The great Powers have their rights in Berlin—

Mr. Silverman

I did not say that they have not.

Mr. Heath

They have their rights in Berlin and on them depend the freedom of the West Berliners. The West Berliners are satisfied with that.

Mr. Rankin

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in his report after the Vienna meeting with Mr. Khrushchev President Kennedy stated that in order to defend those rights he was prepared to take any risk whatsoever? Does the policy enshrined in that attitude represent the policy that we have in West Berlin, or can the right hon. Gentleman tell us that we are looking at the problem with a more constructive approach than that statement of President Kennedy indicates?

Mr. Heath

We are keeping in close touch with our allies on this point.

Mr. Healey

Will the Lord Privy Seal agree, first, that if there is to be a change in the status of West Berlin it must be by agreement with all four Powers signing the agreements defining the existing status of West Berlin, and second, that if there is to be a change in the status of West Berlin it must apply also to the status of East Berlin which is governed by the same agreements?

Mr. Heath

I made plain in my speech in the House of Commons on 17th May that we do not acquiesce in any unilateral resolution of the problem.

Mr. M. Foot

Do not the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman has outlined as a Western basis for a settlement of the German problem mean that the Russian Government would have to accept that the whole of a reunited Germany should conceivably be incorporated in the Western defence system? Does he think that it is realistic for any Government to suggest that that is what the Russians should approve?

Mr. Heath

The Western peace proposals mean that the Soviet Government would have to accept that there should be self-determination by the Germans. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is opposed to self-determination.

Mr. Silverman

Will the Lord Privy Seal accept that it is common ground that the rights of the Western Powers should be protected, that it is common ground that the West Berliners should be consulted and that they should be protected, and that it is common ground that the anomalous conditions in Berlin are anomalous conditions in East Berlin as well as in West Berlin? Have the Government any proposals for bringing these anomalous conditions to an end, or is the thing to remain as an open festering sore until the third world war breaks out?

Mr. Heath

Whether it be common ground depends upon between whom the hon. Gentleman suggests that it is common ground.

Mr. Silverman

Common ground in the House.

13. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the Western Plan, published on 30th May, to which Her Majesty's Government have agreed, which includes the capture of East German control posts.

18. Mrs. Hart

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's plan for dealing with a possible emergency situation in Berlin.

38. Mr. Healey

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the policy of Her Majesty's Government concerning military contingency planning by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation on Berlin.

Mr. Heath

As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil (Mr. S. O. Davies) on 12th May, no plan of this nature has been published. Military plans of any description must necessarily remain secret.

Mr. Allaun

Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that last week the Minister of Defence was asked if he had read a detailed and unrepudiated article in the New York Herald-Tribune and that he replied that he was not responsible for what appeared in American papers? May I now ask the Lord Privy Seal whether there is or is not a new Western plan which would involve the seizure of the Helmstadt base, which would precipitate a new world war?

Mr. Heath

Of course, I have seen the various articles written by American correspondents containing all sorts of suggestions and speculations. Obviously, all the Western Governments have been consulting on the possible contingencies that may arise in Berlin, and rightly so. We would have been failing in our duty if we had not.

Mrs. Hart

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, quite apart from the article in the New York Herald-Tribune, a day or two earlier there was a report in the Daily Express which was alleged to be based on what a Foreign Office spokesman had said in regard to the emergency plan for Berlin? Is he further aware that if it is becoming clear that his policy and N.A.T.O. policy on Berlin are going to result in the issue of ultimatums and counter-ultimatums by each side there must be something wrong with that policy? Will not he consider an alternative policy, such as a United Nations policy?

Mr. Heath

Anything that appeared in the Press was certainly not based on what a Foreign Office spokesman had said. So far as Her Majesty's Government and their allies are concerned, we are not issuing any ultimatums, and we are not trying to change the present situation.

Mr. Healey

While recognising the need for contingency planning by the military, particularly in view of the Soviet Government's threat, unilaterally and without the agreement of the cosignatories, to transfer some of the responsibilities which they accepted at the end of the war, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would not agree that it must remain the responsibility of the political authorities in all the four countries concerned to decide where and when these contingency plans should be carried out according to the circumstances of the case when they arise?

Mr. Heath

Yes, Sir: that is absolutely right. The contingency planning must be done in any part of the world under political directives, and the decisions must remain political decisions.