HC Deb 06 June 1961 vol 641 cc1027-34

Amendments made: In page 17, line 45, leave out "made at any licensing sessions".

In page 18, line 7, leave out "made as aforesaid".—[Mr. Vosper.]

Mr. Leslie Hale (Oldham, West)

I beg to move, That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned. I believe that this Motion would now be acceptable to the House. We have been discussing this rather curious Measure and I find myself in great difficulty about it because no one in Oldham wants it. Everyone is against it there, except possibly myself. As all my constituents are opposed to it, I have promised them that I shall vote against it, and nothing but another speech by the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir C. Black) would turn me from that purpose.

We are embarking, indeed we have embarked, on a week of Parliamentary business which menaces all of us. We have the Finance Bill tomorrow and on Thursday, and we shall be considering matters on which most of us are very deeply concerned. We are to have a series of Bills on Friday in respect of which most of us have had a great deal of correspondence. We have been trying, rather humbly and unhappily, in these last two days to find what has

happened to this Bill which has been subjected to Amendments of such importance and such volume as to provide every hon. Member with what one might think an unnecessary amount of homework.

Most of us when we came here yesterday had to embark on a new study of the whole of this Measure and the Amendments in order to familiarise ourselves with what was now in the mind of the Government. We have reached a stage when some Amendments have been accepted and some have been reasonably discussed, and it might be that the Government may want to consider the position in the light of the debate over the last two days. Speaking perfectly seriously and not in any political sense, it is abundantly obvious that the Government cannot get Third Reading tonight. If they insist on getting Third Reading tonight they will either do so over the sleeping bodies of a minority of hon. Members and in a manner which would do them little credit, or they will get it after a long, miserable all-night sitting.

In those circumstances, I should have thought this was the moment at which we might seriously consider the question of adjourning. The curfew of departing day

has long since tolled. If the Leader of the House wishes to make a statement I shall be glad to give way to him, because I always like to see him on his feet and I shall welcome his intervention.

Mr. R. A. Butler

The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) took part in the early part of our deliberations and drew our attention to some important points of redrafting of the confirmation procedure which was virtually agreed should be done in Committee. He was a great help to us on that occasion. It is those Amendments which now occupy a great deal of the Notice Paper.

If we look at the Notice Paper we find an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason)—in page 24, line 44, at beginning insert: (1) A justice having an interest in the profits of any premises shall not be thereby disqualified under subsection (4) of section forty-eight of the Licensing Act, 1953, or otherwise from acting under that Act or this Act, if he would not fall to be treated as having such an interest but for the fact that he has a beneficial interest in shares of a company or other body having an interest in those profits, and if his beneficial interest in the shares of the company or body does not extend to shares of a total in actual value greater than two hundred and fifty pounds. That needs attention, and there are one or two other points of some interest to consider, including an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher), apart from many others which are consequential, which can, I think, be dealt with by reasonable co-operation of the House.

I should like to meet the hon. Member and the House on the question of Third Reading. I think that before we have Third Reading it might be convenient if the Bill were reprinted. We would then be able to see what has happened and perhaps to discuss some of the issues which were raised earlier today, including, although we had six hours on them, points raised by hon. and right hon. Members representing the Principality. If we take the House into our confidence in that way, which I hope will be regarded as reasonable, I think there is still a little life left in the House and that we could make a little progress on Report. But in deference to what has been said, and I hope in deference to the point put to me privately by the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir F. Soskice) and his hon. Friends, I think we should be meeting the wishes of the House if, at some inconvenience to the Government, we did not proceed with Third Reading tonight but looked at the Measure again.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). He has put the case very clearly, and all that the Home Secretary has said only underlines and emphasises what was said by my hon. Friend. It is quite obvious that if we take the rest of the Amendments on Report we shall be here for a number of hours yet. It is true that some of the Amendments are consequential, but those of us who are interested on this side will wish to have an explanation on practically all of them, and that will take time. We shall want to discuss at such length as we are able the Amendments down in the names of my hon. Friends and myself. That means that, whether we take Third Reading tonight or not, we shall be here for a good many hours, and if hon. Members have to be kept here very much longer they may as well stay all night because the train service will have stopped. As has been pointed out, we have a heavy two days ahead on the Finance Bill, and there is some talk that we may be sitting for one whole night, or perhaps two. It would be a pity if we had to sit for three whole nights.

There is no hurry about this Bill. I can bear out that the Bill, whether it passes into law this Session or not, is of no consequence. It is quite immaterial whether we finish Report tonight or not. The Order Paper has been littered for days with Amendments by the Home Secretary, who apparently on Second Reading could not make up his mind what sort of Bill he wanted. We have done our best in Committee to improve it, and there is no reason why hon. Members on the other side of the House any more than on this should be kept up night after night because the Government are so incompetent.

If the Home Secretary thinks that we are going to get through Report in another half an hour, he is grossly mistaken, and he would be wise to accept the suggestion and allow the debate to be adjourned so that we can take a fresh look at it on another occasion.

Major Sir Frank Markham (Buckingham)

The House will not expect me to agree with some of the remarks that have just been made, but I am one of those who thinks that this Bill would benefit, certainly as regards Part III, by more consideration than we as back benchers have been able to give it over the last few days. There have been such grave and important changes made in Part III, which deals with clubs, that I for one would welcome more breathing space before we come to them. Therefore, I would suggest that we go as far as Clause 15—that is, finish Part II—which the Opposition might think was reasonable, and then come back with fresh minds and fresh contacts with our constituents for the remainder and for Third Reading.

Mr. Fletcher

Might I just add that I think everyone who has served in Committee is conscious of the fact that a great deal of painstaking and constructive work was done to improve the Bill as it passed on Second Reading. The Home Secretary went out of his way on Second Reading to invite detailed, constructive comment and criticism, which was made from both sides. As a result a great many Amendments have been made. The Government reserved their decision during Committee until Report, and throughout our deliberations it has been the desire of the Home Secretary to meet the wishes of the House.

11.15 p.m.

We were all unduly optimistic in expecting the Report stage to be completed in two days. After all, the Committee stage occupied 25 sittings, and it was the Home Secretary's original intention that Clause 6 should be completed by last night and the rest of the Bill taken today. It proved impossible yesterday to get beyond Clause 5. It happens that Clause 6, which was of particular interest to Welsh Members, occupied the first six hours of today.

As the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) has pointed out, Part III of the Bill is of the greatest possible interest. It contains novel features, and a great many matters arise about clubs which were left over from the Committee stage. There are a number of Amendments on the Order Paper. They need careful consideration.

It would be a great mistake if we attempted to hurry through the Amendments to Part III tonight, and I suggest to the Home Secretary that the interests of the public and the House would be served if we could adjourn at the end of Part II, as was suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham. The right hon. Gentleman would not be losing any Parliamentary time. By adopting this proposal we should then be able to complete Part III and the Third Reading in a reasonable time on a later occasion.

Mr. G. Thomas

I rise to join my appeal to that of my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) and Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). This is not an unimportant Measure. Both sides in the controversy agree that this is one of the major Measures of this Parliament. It would be unreasonable to expect those of us who have opposed the main features of the Bill to curtail our criticism because of the time. It would be an injustice to the House and a denial of democracy to expect us to hurry up matters simply because the clock was defeating us.

It is clear that if we continue with the Report stage tonight we cannot complete it much before four o'clock or five o'clock tomorrow morning, and no one on either side of the House, bearing in mind that we were late last night and that we are almost certain, I understand, to go all night tomorrow, can claim that we shall be doing justice to this important Measure if we sit so late.

Now, from the benches opposite, has come a reasonable compromise suggestion. The hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) has suggested that we finish Part II, and then deal later with the important Part III, which will bring in to take part in our debates a large number of hon. Members who have not taken part so far. They will want to speak on behalf of the clubs, and they will have a better opportunity on a later occasion.

The Leader of the House, who usually has a flair for sensing the feeling of the House, would be falling below his usual form if the failed to realise that we have reached a turning point and that there is a general feeling that we should go home and be refreshed for our labours tomorrow.

Sir F. Soskice

I am sure the Home Secretary will agree that the Bill naturally falls into three parts. We are well on our way through Part II and should be able to complete that within a reasonable time if we go on now. When we get to Part III we are dealing with what is, in a sense, the most important part of the Bill, the part relating to clubs.

I am sure that the Home Secretary has it in mind that there are several matters raised by Amendments on the Order Paper which are bound to give rise to debate. The question is whether we are to give them proper consideration tonight or whether we should adjourn so that we can approach them afresh on some future occasion.

The right hon. Gentleman is well on his way through his Bill. It is a most important one, and we were, after all, debating it till the early hours this morning. There was a not very agreeable ending to our debate this morning when a very important change was made which gave rise to some feeling.

What is suggested here—and there is a considerable measure of agreement on both sides of the House—is that it would be reasonable now to say that if we get to the end of Clause 15 and, in other words, complete the second part of the Bill—

Mr. R. A. Butler

Clause 18.

Sir F. Soskice

—Clause 18—we could then properly adjourn and return to this matter afresh. I will not repeat what has already been said, but we know that we shall have a very late sitting tomorrow and possibly the day after.

I hope that the Home Secretary will agree that a reasonable course has been proposed. I think that all hon. Members have reached the stage—at any rate, in this I speak for a great many of my hon. Friends—when they really are tired and want a little rest before they address themselves to the rest of the Bill.

Mr. R. A. Butler

From my experience of the House I would not find the pressure tonight very great from the point of view of sheer physical effort, but I pay attention to the sense of what has been expressed. While it would be quite possible for the Government to insist on going on to the end of the Report stage, which would take several hours, I think that we had better pay attention to what the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) has said and what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) said.

I would differ from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham), and think that we should at least get to the end of Clause 18. There are not many Amendments on the Notice Paper in relation to Clauses 16–18. That would bring us to the beginning of Part III and leave that to be started on another occasion.

I should also like to accept what the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) said, namely that we could get the rest of the Bill in a reasonable time. I do not think it is reasonable to have quite such protracted debates on Report stage on smaller points as we have had today. I hope that we may concentrate on the major issues on the next occasion and try to treat the matter as much as a Report stage as possible. There were special reasons today, but I think that there will probably not be such strong reasons an another occasion, except when we concentrate on certain major issues which may well arise on the part dealing with clubs.

In the circumstances, I would agree with the sense of what has been said, that we should go to the end of Clause 18 tonight and start on Part III on the next occasion.

Mr. Hale

In those circumstances, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the very courteous way in which he has received the Motion, which I beg to ask leave to withdraw.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.