New Clause D.—(NEW PROVISIONS FOR PROTECTION OF YOUNG PERSONS.) (Hansard, 28 July 1961)

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords Amendment.
This rather formidable-looking Clause gives effect to the views expressed in Committee and on Report that the present prohibition of sales to young persons should be extended to off-sales. It prohibits sales to young persons under the age of 18 on off-licence premises. The reason why the Clause looks so formidable is that we have taken the opportunity of consolidating the law respecting the sales of liquor to young persons all in one Clause. I think that that is a reasonable thing to do, because the House has always been concerned throughout the passage of the Bill to try to protect the interests of young people. I think that it will be helpful to have all these provisions in one Clause.
The only other paint is that the Clause extends the prohibition to premises 874 which have retail excise licences only, such as theatre bars, where at present, it is perfectly legal for a young person to get a drink. This Clause goes some way to meet the views expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) on Report. These views were opposed in some quarters of the House, but undoubtedly the majority wished to see the prohibition extended to the age of 18. That was the wish of the House, and I hope that the new Clause will commend itself to it today.

§ Commander J. S. Kerans (The Hartlepools)
I am most grateful to the Government for the way in which they have drafted this Amendment from another place, and I am sure that it will be welcome to a very large section of the community. Looking at the Report on Criminal Statistics, England and Wales, which was published yesterday, and particularly the figures for juvenile crime, we realise that this Clause will go some way towards reducing the number of these indictable offences arising from drunkenness and the purchase of liquor by young persons below the age of 18. I am still a little unhappy about the identification of people under 18 and of those of 18 and above. I think that this is a difficult thing to overcome and that only the passage of time will show whether it really works. I am not at all certain whether, perhaps, fines upon the parents should not have been imposed, rather than on the publican or licensee, but only time will tell how it will work. I am grateful to the Government for what they have done, and I am sure that the majority of people will also be grateful.

§ Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop (Tiverton)
I think that we ought to be very careful, when legislating to get rid of abuses of the law, that we do not by so doing cause great inconvenience to people exercising their legitimate rights under the law.
It seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous that a father should be at liberty to go to a public house or an off-licence, quite legally buy a bottle of whisky and then feed it to a child of 10 at home, whereas under these provisions it is quite illegal for a man to send his son aged 17 to an off-licence to get a bottle of beer for the father to consume 875 at home. To my mind, that is utterly ridiculous.
There are places in this country, including my constituency, where the father is at work by day and returns home at night, wanting both refreshment and a meal at home. The mother, however, is unable to leave the house, because she has children to look after and has the meal to prepare, and it is quite customary for children to be sent, not to a bar, but an off-licence or the off-licence department in a public house, to purchase, generally, beer for the father who has come home from work. This is something utterly reasonable, and without doubt it will be a hardship to a certain number of people if this right is withdrawn.
Had this Amendment merely said that it would henceforth be illegal for an off-licence department of a public house or an off-licence shop to supply spirits or wine to persons under 18, I think that, on balance, it would have commended itself to me. The evil which we are endeavouring to obviate is that of young persons buying wines and spirits at off-licensed premises, taking them away and drinking them. What we should not be trying to prevent is the sort of practice which I have described where parents in reasonable need of refreshment send their children to fetch it for them.
Moreover, if people wish to drink wines or spirits at home, there is no good reason why they should not purchase such drinks some time in advance and have them standing by. On the other hand, where there are no facilities for storing beer at a reasonable temperature and in proper conditions at home, there is something to be said for obtaining it at the time one wishes to drink it.
This series of new provisions in the Lords Amendment does not, therefore, commend itself to me. I doubt very much that those who drafted it fully considered what the effects would be. In my view, since we are endeavouring to tidy up the Bill, it would be the lesser evil to send this new Clause back to another place to be redrafted in a somewhat more intelligent and just form.

§ Mr. Vosper
I appreciate what my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton 876 (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) says. I said something to similar effect in Committee. I realise that some inconvenience will be caused as a result of the Amendment. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that the majority opinion of the House was that something on these lines should be introduced. The Government considered that there was no alternative but to go the whole way in this respect, and that is what we have done.
I do not think that people will find it quite so difficult to adjust themselves to the new procedure as, perhaps, my hon. Friend imagines. I am following the desire expressed by the House during the Report stage, and the Government have always made clear that on this Measure they would be responsible to parliamentary and public opinion on any particular point. That is what we have done in putting down this new Clause.