HC Deb 17 July 1961 vol 644 cc869-70
23 and 24. Mr. Small

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) how many contributors to the graduated pension scheme will retire in 1961 having contributed insufficient to qualify for any addition to their pensions;

(2) if he will estimate the aggregate of contributions to the graduated scheme which will be paid in 1961 by retiring contributors who will not qualify for any graduated addition to their pensions.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As the Answers will in due course depend among other things on a large number of individual decisions not yet made, I must resist any temptation to prophesy.

Mr. Small

Can the Minister define in general terms the extraction from the contributor of £3 14s. 6d. and from the employer £3 14s. 6d.? Will not a considerable amount be retained by the State? Will there be any remit for those who contribute £7 9s.?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As I explained to the hon. Member last night, the principle of the Act as approved by Parliament—

Mr. Manuel

What sort of dream was that?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

In fairness to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Scotstoun (Mr. Small), I must say that "last night" was a slip of the tongue for "last week". As I explained to the hon. Member last week, the principle of the Act as accepted by Parliament is that if one gets as much as half a unit one receives the value of a whole unit and if one gets less than half it goes into the National Insurance Fund. We had this point out very thoroughly when we discussed the Bill and I think that it is a reasonable arrangement.

Mr. Ross

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this is not a recurring problem and that it will apply only or mainly in this particular year? Does he not agree that the amount is fairly marginal and that it would remove a strong sense of injustice to people who retire in the initial weeks or months of the scheme if he arranged to repay them?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member is quite wrong. This situation, depending on the particular time at which a person decides to retire, can arise at any time.

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