HC Deb 24 January 1961 vol 633 cc16-8
28. Mr. C. Johnson

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what increased contributions will be payable by regulations under the National Insurance Act, 1959, by women in local government service who are over the age of 60 years on 1st April next; and by what amount their aggregate pensions will be increased on retirement.

Sir K. Joseph

The effect of the regulations which my right hon. Friend proposes to make on the total of contributions towards National Insurance and local government pensions made by women over 60 in local government service will vary, according to the level of pay, from a reduction of Is. 5d. a week to an increase of 2s. 6d. The regulations have no appreciable effect on aggregate pension.

This takes no account of the increases in National Insurance contributions and retirement pensions provided for in the National Insurance Act, 1960.

Mr. Johnson

Is it not clear from that reply that women between the ages of 60 and 63 on 1st April next who earn at least f15 a week will be called upon to pay an additional 2s. 6d. a week in contributions and still obtain no increased pension? Is it fair and equitable that such a comparatively heavy burden should be placed upon them at the end of their service?

Sir K. Joseph

Yes, but these women will get the opportunity to retire earlier than they would otherwise have done—at 60 instead of 65. In such a complex matter, which must affect all staff, it is impossible to get a unified scheme without everybody's position being slightly affected. In the worst case, women who have the advantage of being able to retire earlier may have to pay over three years a matter of £20 extra, but most women, of course, are benefiting by these regulations.

Mr. Johnson

Does the Minister think it satisfactory to advise these women to retire at 60, having regard to the fact that their pensions are scaled down so heavily if they do so?

Sir K. Joseph

This is still a right which they did not have in the previous situation.

29. Mr. C. Johnson

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what increased weekly contributions will be payable by regulations under the National Insurance Act, 1959, after 1st April next by local government employees earning between £12 10s. and £13 per week for men and £11 and £12 for women, in order to earn the same aggregate benefits as they would be entitled to at present.

Sir K. Joseph

The regulations which my right hon. Friend proposes to make will affect the total contributions towards National Insurance and local government pensions at all levels of pay, from reductions of 2s. 3d. a week to increases of 8d. a week. For the levels of pay mentioned there will be increases of 2d. to 6d. for a man and Id. to 8d. for a woman.

This takes no account of the increases in National Insurance contributions and retirement pensions provided for under the National Insurance Act, 1960.

Mr. Johnson

Is it not clear from that reply that many local government employees will be called upon to pay up to Is. a week more to produce exactly the same benefits as they get at present? As cross-over points of £12 10s. and £11 respectively have been adopted in the case of the National Health Service, would it not be better for his right hon. Friend to agree to the same standard for local government employees?

Sir K. Joseph

The National Health Service has quite different considerations. In that case the Minister is to some extent the employer of the staff concerned. My right hon. Friend came into this complex matter only in order to secure uniformity for all staff in local government, and to do that it was essential that there should be some give and take. There was agreement between the staff and the employing authorities except for a very narrow gap, and my right hon. Friend had to take a decision to achieve uniformity.