HC Deb 23 February 1961 vol 635 cc763-6
7. Mr. Stonehouse

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations 'if he will make a statement on the results of the constitutional talks for Southern Rhodesia; and what action Her Majesty's Government now intend to take.

Mr. Sandys

A full report of the conclusions of the conference was presented to the House in a White Paper on 14th February. Certain details still remain to be worked out, after which I understand that the Government of Southern Rhodesia intend to submit the proposals for confirmation at a referendum. Ultimately legislation by this House will, of course, be necessary.

Mr. Stonehouse

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we acknowledge the sincere attempts which he made to reach an agreement? Does he realise, however, that most of the population of that country regard a constitution which allocates three-quarters of the seats in an enlarged Parliament to less than 10 per cent. of the population as white racialism? As the good will on which such arrangements depend has been destroyed by the extremist speeches of Sir Edgar Whitehead and Sir Roy Welensky, will the right hon. Gentleman consider a referendum, not only of the white electorate of Southern Rhodesia, but of the black population as well?

Mr. Sandys

These changes, of course, do not go as far as the African representatives would have liked, but none the less they will give to the Africans in the new Legislative Assembly probably something approaching 25 per cent. of the seats, whereas at present they have none at all.

Mr. Marquand

is it not a fact that the African representatives now point out that, although they may have agreed in the initial stages of discussion to some of these proposals, paragraph 11 of the White Paper is quite incompatible with so small a representation as they are alleged to have agreed to?

Mr. Sandys

There is no question of their allegedly having agreed to this. The African representatives—I think that the right hon. Gentleman has in mind in particular the National Democratic Party —fully agreed the whole of the Report, and the paragraph from which they now wish to dissociate themselves was drafted over a period of nearly a week in very close consultation with them. There is no question about their having agreed it. The position is a little obscure, because there have been so many slightly varying statements by them. As I have said, these changes will give the Africans probably nearly a quarter of the seats in the Legislature, and I have no doubt: that they would be sorry if we did not go through with the proposals. But they wish to make it quite clear that they are not giving the impression that they are satisfied with the changes which have been made. The Report made it clear that all the delegates, whose views were widely differing, reserved their position while at the same time saying that they considered that the new arrangements for franchise and representation should be introduced.

Mr. Marquand

As it is now evident that there is serious disagreement among African opinion in Southern Rhodesia about what the result of these two paragraphs, taken together, might be, particularly concerning the infringement of constitutional rights which might result from paragraph 11 if the Africans were inadequately represented in the Legislature, will the right hon. Gentleman at any rate give the House an assurance that he will not proceed with paragraph 32 of the White Paper, which involves the elimination of the reserve powers of Her Majesty's Government, until he has found a better means of ascertaining that African opinion is really in favour?

Mr. Sandys

I am entirely satisfied in so far as one can consult African opinion. It is sometimes a little difficult to consult these parties, which have less cohesion even than the party opposite on defence. None the less, all I can say is that the President of the National Democratic Party, Mr. Nkomo, while expressing dissatisfaction with the arrangements on franchise and representation, has more than once expressed his approval and satisfaction with the enshrinement of a declaration of rights, the creation of a constitutional council and the grant of appeal to the Privy Council.

Mr. Wall

Is it not clear that the agreement was born of compromise between the views of Sir Edgar Whitehead and Mr. Nkomo, and is it not most unfortunate that we should try to undermine the position of one side or the other? Should not we do everything we can to cement the agreement?

Mr. Callaghan

While I understand that the Secretary of State wants to divert attention from the differences in his own ranks about Central Africa, nevertheless the fact remains that the British House of Commons and the British Government have considerable responsibilities in this matter. Is he aware that, as long as we retain our responsibilities, there will be very strong resistance to any attempt made by him, no matter what agreement he may have reached, to remove the protection which is given by the Crown to people in Southern Rhodesia as long as they enjoy only a minority of seats and of representation in Parliament and, therefore, are unable to exercise a full franchise?

Mr. Sandys

I endorse every word that the hon. Gentleman has said. It is entirely in that spirit that these arrangements were negotiated. We have certain reserve powers which have proved to be extremely blunt instruments and very unsuitable for dealing with the situation. As a result, we have negotiated some entirely different safeguards—I have already mentioned them—which, in my view, will prove an infinitely better and more effective protection for human rights and protection against unfair racial discrimination than the powers we already possess.