HC Deb 15 February 1961 vol 634 cc1665-89

[Queen's Recommendation signified.]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).

[Major Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to increase the rates of national health service contributions and to amend the National Health Service Contributions Act, 1957, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the expenses and other sums so payable under the said Art of 1957.—[Sir E. Boyle.]

5.13 a.m

Mr. R. J. Mellish (Bermondsey)

Sir William, I want to oppose this Money Resolution, and to give the following reasons for so doing. I will try very hard to keep in order. This Money Resolution goes very wide indeed, and makes perfectly clear the purposes for which the money is to be used in its broader context. I claim to have some knowledge of the workings of the National Health Service Act

Hon. Members

Speak up.

Mr. Mellish

If hon. Members opposite would keep in order I could use my normal voice—

Hon. Members

Repeat it.

Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow)

On a point of order, Sir William. I hope that you will not permit my hon. Friend to repeat himself. We have only a limited time in which to discuss this Money Resolution, so, even though hon. Members opposite may not have heard what my hon. Friend said, I hope that he will not bother to repeat it.

5.15 a.m.

The Deputy-Chairman

I did not hear very much noise. I think that the combination of a little more quiet on one side and a little louder voice on the other would be desirable.

Mr. Mellish

I certainly shall not repeat myself. I have not yet said anything to repeat.

I have some knowledge of the National Health Service Act, because I am chairman of a hospital management committee and a member of a regional board. For the last ten years I have been responsible in a minor way for spending some of the Government's money on running the Service. I can claim to know something about how the costs of the Service have risen. The budget of the committee of which I have the honour to be chairman was just over £½ million in 1948. Today it is nearly £¾ million. Because of the extra money we have been able to provide 250 extra beds. At the Minister's request we recently did an analysis to discover why, in spite of extra beds, certain costs had risen.

Some revealing facts came to light. First, in the last three years the cost of a very important part of the Service, namely, provisions for patients in hospital, has risen hardly at all. The Government will be pleased about that. The vast majority of the increased expense, which is from £½ million to £¾ million, is accounted for by the increase in salaries and wages to doctors, nurses and auxiliary staff. It is unfair to say that the inflationary condition of the country is not related to the National Health Service charges.

It has been suggested that there is a great waste. We sincerely believe that today we are getting even better value for our money than we were in 1948. It is monstrous for any hon. Gentleman opposite to convey the impression, as has been done so often, that National Health Service charges are in some way related to the increased cost per patient, that is to say, that the factors involved are not merely the making of those running the Service. The increased costs have been brought about by increases in wages and salaries.

The other large factor which is important is the fantastic rise in the cost of drugs and dressings. A number of Ministers of Health have asked us to make analyses. At the request of the Minister of Health we have had local committees of inquiry to see how we can solve the problem. We have had all the co-operation we can reasonably expect from our consultants and registrars in our effort to find how we could cut down the cost of drugs. We have been unable to do so, because every time we have tried to economise on the amount of drugs issued by the doctors, before we know what has happened the cost has been increased by the manufacturers.

An examination of the costs of the Service shows that if we could have held salaries at a reasonable level—I do not advocate that; I think that hospital staff deserve good wages—the costs of the Service would have been considerably lower than they were in 1948, because we made many economies. There is a great field for saving in the Service.

Those of us who give up a great deal of spare time to this work know of the problems of maintenance of some of our hospital buildings. We are spending a fortune maintaining buildings that should have been pulled down. If only we could get a capital sum for the area which I represent! We have a hospital there dating back to 1782. It has been improved, certainly since 1948, until it has become almost a new hospital, but the maintenance costs are phenomenal. If we could build a new hospital we should save money.

We have told this to the Minister, but when we asked whether we could be considered for a new hospital, we were laughed out of court. Now we are told that costs have gone up and people must pay more. But the Guillebaud Report showed clearly that the Service was run efficiently and well, and I do not need to speak of the benefits it has given to our people.

There are still odd Tories [An. HON. MEMBER: "They are all odd."] There are not so many of them as there used to be in this sense. There are still odd Tories who complain about foreigners getting treatment under the National Health Service. I represent a constituency where a lot of foreigners get hospital treatment, for we have ships coming into the Surrey Docks and the Pool of London.

One day recently we had a Russian sailor brought in seriously ill at three a.m. We had to send for a consultant, who lived three miles away. An emergency operation was performed and the man's life was saved. He was in hospital for five or six weeks. At the end there was quite a gathering. A representative of the Russian Embassy attended, together with the crew of the man's ship, and we were then asked how much the bill came to. I was proud and happy to say that there was no charge, and that this Service was one of the great things that Britain had done.

I put it to hon. Members opposite that that sort of thing is the greatest propaganda for our country, and it is certainly much better than anything the Foreign Secretary could say. There is at least one Russian crew which can speak with gratitude about our Health Service.

Had we not had the Russian sailor admitted, we should still not have saved money. The consultant is full-time and, whether he operates or not, is still paid £ 3,000 a year. This is a magnificent Service. It has benefited not only ourselves as a people but the world as a whole.

It is a tragedy that increased prescription charges are being introduced, and I believe that this Money Resolution will help to undermine much of the good that has been done. One can relate all sorts of ways in which money can be saved.

Members opposite have trooped through the Lobby with glee for this Bill, and I am sorry that they, as British people, should make their contribution to hurting one of the greatest things Britain has ever done.

Mr. T. L. Iremonger (Ilford, North)

I hesitated to interrupt the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish), but I was in doubt as to whether what he was saying was in order on the Money Resolution.

Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)

On a point of order—

Mr. Iremonger

I was in fact rising on a point of order.

Mr. Fletcher

Surely it is highly improper, Sir William, and most irregular, for an hon. Member, either expressly or by clear implication, to make a reflection of that kind upon your Chairmanship? It will be in the recollection of the Committee that we have heard an admirable speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) dealing with a large number of interesting topics, to which the whole Committee listened with great interest. If for one moment you, Sir William, thought that anything he said was in any way out of order or not related to this Money Resolution, I am sure you would have complained. I am sure that as you did not stop him you agreed that there should be a wide discussion on the Resolution and that we should not be narrowly confined, now that the Standing Order limits us to forty-five minutes discussion on it. Following the precedent you set, it seems regrettable that you should have that unworthy reflection cast upon you by the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger).

The Deputy-Chairman

I thought that the speech we listened to was in order or I would have interrupted it. I did not take the speech of the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) as a point of order and I did not understand it as a direct criticism of the Chair. I feel sure it was not so meant.

Mr. Iremonger

I am obliged to you, Sir William. I am obliged, also to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher). I am sure that he would not want to do me an injustice. I was in fact about to address myself to you, Sir William, for guidance as to just what would be in order because, quite obviously, you did not rule the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) out of order. I feel that it might be helpful to the Committee if it could follow exactly in what sense the rather wide- ranging although very interesting and illuminating remarks of the hon. Member actually related to the terms of the Money Resolution. Unless I misread the Bill and the Money Resolution, it seemed that the Resolution was: to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the expenses and other sums so payable under the said Act of 1957. which were attributable to the Bill to which the House has just given a Second Reading. It may be that I was misguided in this, but it seemed to me on looking at the Bill and at the Explanatory Memorandum—I am sure the Committee would he obliged if it could have your guidance—that the only expenses "attributable … to this Act"—

Mr. Stephen Swingler (Newcastle-under-Lyme)

It is a Bill.

Mr. Iremonger

It is referred to as an Act.

Mr. Swingler

It is a Bill.

Mr. Iremonger

The Money Resolution uses the words, "the said Act". The only increase in the sums payable under the 1957 Act which are attributable to this Bill—if Bill it be—are the very narrow sums attributable to the actual administration of the levying of these charges.

I was a little confused when the hon. Member for Bermondsey referred to prescription charges, because I was under the impression that this Bill was about contributions, but again I may have been misguided about that. I understand that there are certain points about apportioning pensions and administration and office accommodation which are putatively attributable to this Measure, and perhaps it would be convenient if it could be explained how they are related to the administration of the Health Service as a whole. I wonder if it would be convenient for the Committee to be enlightened on that.

5.30 a.m.

The Deputy-Chairman

I think that the hon. Member is getting things a little bit upside down. I do not take it as the duty of the Chair to explain to the Committee everything which may possibly be in order. Rather I think it is the duty of the Chair to endeavour to check anything which certainly is out of order.

Mr. Edward Short (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central)

On a point of order. The hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. Tapsell) has his eyes closed. May we be told whether he is dead or asleep?

The Deputy-Chairman

As so often, that is not a point of order.

Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas (Lincoln)

I suggest to the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) that if he wanted to know what is in order he could have gone courteously to the Table for consultation and he would courteously have been given indication of what is in order. That has been the practice for many years, I understand. I suggest he does that in future.

I should like to comment on two matters which my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) raised. One is the increased cost of drugs—

Mr. Iremonger

On a point of order. May I submit that, on the ground of the argument I was presuming to address to the Committee, the point which the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) is raising is out of order on the Money Resolution?

The Deputy-Chairman

I think that it may soon appear that the hon. Member who has the Floor of the Committee is getting himself out of order.

Mr. de Freitas

That may occur, but I had and have no intention of getting out of order. I only hope that the Minister who replies to the debate will address himself to the argument which my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey raised, because it is widely believed that the cost of drugs today is a racket.

My hon. Friend mentioned that he had a Russian in his constituency. I should like to mention a German acrobat who was in mine in a circus.

Mr. Iremonger

I apologise, Sir William, for rising to a further point of order, but I think the Committee would be assisted in its consideration of this Money Resolution if it could be assured that Russian acrobats—

Mr de Freitas


Mr. Iremonger

—Russian sailors and German acrobats do relate to the increase attributable to the provisions of the 1957 Act arising out of the Bill we have just read a Second Time. It really does seem to me that the nexus is a little out of order.

The Deputy-Chairman

I take it that the hon. Member's point of order is that foreigners do not pay contributions and therefore are not affected. It is a line of thought, and I hope that the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) will make his example as short as he can.

Mr. de Freitas

My example will be short. The case of the German acrobat is a rather sad one, and I am sorry that it should have come up in this way. However, he was badly injured and was in hospital, and I went to see him. He said to me, "Do I have to pay anything for this or contribute anything?" I said, "No, this is all part of our free services here." He said, "This is a fine country." I was very proud of that testimonial.

Miss Jennie Lee (Cannock)

I am very glad that your Ruling, Sir William, has made it possible for the Russian sailor and German acrobat to be referred to. I hope that it will also be in order for us to point out that the administrative cost of excluding foreigners from aid we can give under the Health Service would be greater than that of admitting them. Therefore, I hope that hon. Members opposite will pay careful attention to the point, for I am sure that none of us wants to mislead the public.

There is a good deal of writing in the Press which gives the impression that vast sums of money are being needlessly spent on foreigners. There are two points that ought to make us happy. First, if we do something which is civilised and compassionate it has the best possible international results. Secondly, as a good Scotswoman, I like to think that we can do it without having anything like the adverse financial consequences that are sometimes suggested.

Mr. Edward du Cann (Taunton)

The treatment under the National Health Service of people from overseas is both an interesting and important subject which we have discussed in this House on more than one occasion. When we have had these debates, it has been clearly pointed out by Ministers, first, that the total amount of money spent is indeed very small, and, secondly, that the greatest users of this Service are not foreigners but members of the British Commonwealth of Nations. I subscribe to the view—and I believe that this is the majority opinion in the House—that it would be a very poor thing if we did not give them this service. But there is a point to be made in this connection, and I should like to make it shortly, particularly as my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is present.

What is required is not the idea of saying to people from the Commonwealth or elsewhere: "No, you shall not use the Service for which we, the British taxpayers, have paid," but rather: "We should like you to award to our nationals when they visit, or are resident in, your country the same sort of facilities that we provide for you."

I hope that in the course of time my hon. Friend will be able to direct increasing attention to that point. It is a point which has exercised the attention of Ministers for some time. I know that certain arrangements have been made already, but I hope that they will be extended.

Mr. Mellish

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that one of the reasons why it has not been possible to make reciprocal arrangements abroad is because many of those countries have Conservative Governments and that they will not consider such a proposal?

Mr. du Cann

I am extremely sorry that the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have the greatest respect and whose speech I enjoyed, should have found it necessary to make a party point out of this.

Mr. Mellish

It is not a party point. It is true.

Mr. du Cann

It may or may not be true, but it is a party point. It is a pity that it was made. I hope that the Minister of Health and the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to pay increasing attention to this, and that over a period of time it will be brought to a successful conclusion from the British point of view.

Mr. G. W. Reynolds (Islington, North)

I am pleased to note the support from both sides of the House on this question of providing services free of charge under our Health Service for nationals of other countries. I hope that when the Financial Secretary speaks he will give us details of the number of reciprocal agreements now being signed with other European countries and with other countries in the Commonwealth whereby benefits—very often not quite so good as those obtainable here, but nevertheless benefits—will be obtainable by citizens of this country when they visit the Continent and elsewhere. We wish the Government every success in their efforts to sign such agreements with other countries, whether in Europe or in the Commonwealth.

The last time we discussed a Money Resolution of this kind in connection with a National Health Service Contributions Bill was on 5th March, 1958. I find that on that occasion my right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) was called by the Chair because neither the Financial Secretary to the Treasury nor the Minister of Health made any attempt to explain the Money Resolution. The Money Resolution has been moved, but again with no attempt to explain what it means. Apparently the Financial Secretary is to take part in the discussion, but it would be a good idea if we had these things explained at the beginning of the debate rather than that we should have to continue the discussion without knowing what was or was not in order, and have the explanation at the end of it. The trouble on that occasion was that the House wanted to get on to a Measure dealing with double taxation relief, and no doubt that was more important than levying contributions on ordinary men and women to pay for the Health Service.

I notice that there is a difference between the Financial Resolution put down and discussed by the Committee on 5th March, 1958, and the one before us now. In the one passed in 1958, in respect of exactly the same sort of Bill, there was provision made for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act in the administrative expenses and other sums so payable under the … Act. In this Financial Resolution, there is no mention of or provision for administrative expenses, although the Explanatory Memorandum in paragraph 3 (c) refers to administrative costs which will arise as a result of the operation of the Bill.

I cannot understand why, when special reference was made to administrative expenses in the 1958 Financial Resolution and there will be administrative expenses under the Bill now before the House, there is no reference to them in the Financial Resolution. There were other minor differences between the two Resolutions, but I should like an explanation about that.

Dr. J. Dickson Mabon (Greenock)

I do not dissent from anything which the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) has said about our relations with foreigners who, when visiting this country, take advantage of the Health Service. If I make a party political point, the only time that any change has been called for was at the Conservative Party Conference at Scarborogh last October. I hope that hon. Members who utter these sentiments in this Chamber really believe in them and that they will persuade their colleagues not to press, either in the House or at party conferences, resolutions such as that which was before the Conservative Party Conference at Scarborough. I hope that the same attitude will apply to any efforts to give drugs under the National Health Service to private patients.

I rise as a good democrat to make a point on behalf of a constituent who is a Conservative, a doctor who objects strongly to the fact that the stamp carries on its face the inscription "National Health Service contribution". He has various reasons for his view, with most of which I disagree, but, nevertheless, I am obliged as his representative to consider and submit his point of view. I hope that the Financial Resolution is wide enough to allow any Amendment which either I or Conservative Members may wish to put down to delete that inscription from the stamp which gives the impression that so much money is taken for the Health Service in that way.

We are told by the Minister that about 70 per cent. comes from the Treasury, and people ought not to imagine that they are paying for the Service through the stamp. That is one of my consti- tuent's arguments. I gather that the matter comes up in his surgery. He was told the other day by a working man who came to him that he did not like having to pay through the stamp for the Health Service when he had to pay for medicine as well, which he did not have to do under the Lloyd George Act of 1911. In other words, that Conservative doctor was in the unhappy position of having to tell his patient that his own party had put back the clock to 1911 and beyond.

When we come to consider Amendments to the various parts of the Bill, will Conservative Members be allowed full franchise? We have witnessed certain actions of the Government Chief Whip recently. I have suffered on two occasions myself through being shut out. I do not mind that; it merely serves to show how wicked the right hon. Gentleman is. But I hope he realises that hon. Members opposite suffer from the same tyranny. Will the Financial Resolution be wide enough to allow all the other remedies which have been suggested by the Social Services Committee of the Tory Party?

I wish to draw attention to the manifestos of the Conservative Party which were published during the election campaign. They are relevant here. It will be noted that one item we are concerned with in the Financial Resolution—I give due credit for it—was a proposal of the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. I might even speculate that it was probably because of this proposal of his as a back bencher that he was selected by the Prime Minister to occupy junior office. Younger Conservatives please note.

5.45 a.m.

It was when he was secretary of the Social Services Committee that the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government submitted a Memorandum wishing that the Conservative Party would do certain things in the sphere of health. This was one, and I have no doubt there were others; indeed, I know that one was that prescriptions ought to be doubled, but as that is not concerned with the Financial Resolution I do not propose to mention it.

That Memorandum was suppressed by the party opposite and not allowed to be published and denied at the election. I should like to know whether all those proposals are being tabled in this Bill and within this Financial Resolution. Are there any suggestions to be added, apart from doubling the prescription charge and increasing the poll tax as this Financial Resolution prescribes? I am asking this because I am anxious that democracy should survive in this country despite the Chief Whip and some of the members of the party opposite.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle)

As there is only a quarter of an hour left I thought that it might be convenient if I rose to explain the purpose of the Financial Resolution. As there were a great many hon. Members eager to speak I thought it fair to give some hon. Members a turn first and then to intervene myself.

The purpose of this Financial Resolution is a simple and a fairly narrow one. It is, of course, essential to the passage of the Bill, but I wish to make it plain that not only does it not affect the prescription charges, but it is not directly concerned with the issue which we debated earlier this morning, namely the rates of contribution.

The purpose of this Financial Resolution I can explain simply. The arrangements for the change in the contribution and for the collecting of the new contribution will inevitably cost money in the sense of the salaries of the civil servants concerned, costs of printing the new stamps and of getting them out to post offices, etc., and the purpose of this Financial Resolution is to enable these expenses to be repaid out of yield.

Sir Barnett Janner (Leicester, North-West)

Will the hon. Gentleman give us an idea of what the cost is likely to be and what we are voting for? We have had a similar experience in a Standing Committee which was discussing another Bill. We have no idea what the expense is.

Sir E. Boyle

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an exact estimate, though I can give an answer in respect of one expense. The hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Reynolds) asked why this Financial Resolution is drafted differently from the similar Resolution in 1958. The answer lies in the last words of this Resolution which speaks of: expenses and other sums so payable under the said Act of 1957. Clause 1 (5, b) applies to this Bill Section 4 (4) of the National Health Service Contributions Act, 1957. Briefly, that subsection and the related subsections of the 1957 Act required the Minister of Health to pay to the appropriate authority or fund in Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man the sums attributable to National Health Service contributions paid by and in respect of certain very limited classes of insured persons who have been treated as belonging to Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man respectively. Notably, these classes of people are members of the Forces who were resident in those territories before they enlisted, and seamen employed on foreign-going ships whose homes are in those areas. Under reciprocal arrangements made between the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, on the one hand, and the Governments of Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man, on the other hand, National Insurance contributions in respect of those groups of people are paid to the corresponding funds in those two countries.

Since 1957, when the Health Service element started its separate legal existence, when it was separated from the National Insurance contribution, the National Health Service contribution in respect of these groups has been paid separately to the Governments concerned. The relevant subsections of the 1957 Act, which are here to be applied to the increases in the present Bill, gave the Minister of Health authority to pay out sums in respect of these contributions to the two Governments concerned.

Roughly, what happens is as follows. Out of the net yield of the total National Health Service contribution which is paid over towards the cost of the Health Service in England and Wales, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health assesses the amount which is due to be paid on behalf of the groups of people to which I have referred. These amounts, paid out of money voted by Parliament, are made over to the Governments of Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man. The effective aid, therefore, to the National Health Service Votes in England and Wales is net of this very small payment and it is about £ 50,000 in all.

Sir B. Janner

We now know that it is "about £ 50,000 ". Will the total be £ 51,000, £ 52,000, £ 100,000 or £ 1 million, or what will it be? Has the hon. Gentleman attempted to find out? He is asking us to agree to the payment of a sum of money. We do not know how much it is. I am sure that nobody, on either side, would want to commit himself to a payment the amount of which we do not have the slightest knowledge.

Sir E. Boyle

I cannot give the Committee figures besides those I have given, because it is impossible at present to make a precise further estimate. The points raised by the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) and by the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) do not arise directly on this Financial Resolution, but my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health has listened to this debate and has, I am sure, taken due note of all the points regarding the National Health Service which have been raised in this discussion.

Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)

On a point of order. There is a matter which should be raised, Sir William. When we had our disturbance last week, reference was made to the lack of facilities in the Members' Tea Room. For the last four or five hours, there has been literally nothing available in the Tea Room, and—

The Deputy-Chairman

If the hon. Member will allow me to cut short his point of order, I do not think that it is a point for me to deal with, but the hon. Member's remarks will be taken note of. The reason why I am in a hurry is that at two minutes before six o'clock, I am compelled by the Standing Order to put the Question.

Mr. Lewis

I appreciate that, Sir William, but there is one point of which you may not be aware. Hon. Lady Members on this side have to go into the kitchen and wash up the tea things because there is not sufficient staff. [Interruption.] It is not a laughing matter. It is disgusting.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

May I ask the Financial Secretary this question? It is no solace to me to know that these matters are being referred to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health. If we are permitted under the Financial Resolution to amend in the Bill certain parts of the National Health Service Contributions Act, 1959, are we able to amend the die which is used for inscribing the stamps, "Health Service contribution"? Will it be possible to amend the Section of the 1957 Act under the terms of the Financial Resolution?

Mr. Hector Hughes (Aberdeen, North)

Before the Financial Secretary 'replies, may I ask him a question touching the one asked by my hon. Friend? I want to know how far the provisions of the Financial Resolution, which must be read with the Bill, are retospective.

The Financial Resolution refers to the National Health Service Contributions Act, 1957, and that must be read in conjunction with the Second Schedule and with Clause I (3) which implements the Second Schedule. That subsection (3) reads: The provisions of the Second Schedule of this Act (which contains minor amendments of the principal Act) shall have effect. The Second Schedule goes on to deal with amendments to the National Health Service Contributions Act. The Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill refers to the same Act and states: The Bill brings the definition up to date, with retrospective effect from the date appropriate to each of the Acts passed since 1956.

Mr. John Hall (Wycombe)

On a point of order. Cannot something be done about the acoustics of the Chamber? Many of us cannot hear a word that is being said.

Mr. Hector Hughes

Perhaps the hon. Member will get a hearing aid. Nobody here or anywhere else has ever before impugned my articulation or clarity of speech.

Mr. Hall

I am obliged to the hon. and learned Member for giving way again, but I could not hear a word he was saying then.

Mr. Douglas Houghton (Sowerby)

On a point of order. May I suggest that the Committee knows nothing like enough about this Money Resolution? The Financial Secretary will not have time to answer the detailed and complicated questions put to him. May I suggest that he withdraws the Money Resolution and brings it forward again?

Sir B. Janner

Further to that point of order. May I ask whether it is in order for the Committee to vote on a matter of expenditure of money if we have not the slightest idea how much that expenditure will be?

Sir E. Boyle

May I answer the three questions put to me? In answer to the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. "Tanner), the difficulty is that it is impossible to distinguish in the total cost of collecting the insurance contribution what will be the actual cost of collecting the health contribution. The cost of the change is approximately £ 50,000. In answer to the hon. and learned Mem-

ber for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), we can discuss that point when we come to the Second Schedule. Amendments and full discussion will certainly be in order on Clause 1 (3) but that does not arise on the Financial Resolution. In answer to the hon. Member for Greenock—

It being two minutes to Six o'clock a.m., three-quarters of an hour after the House had resolved itself into the Committee, The CHAIRMAN put the Question pursuant to Standing Order No. IA (Exemptions from Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House)).

The Committee divided: Ayes 259, Noes 193.

Division No. 53.] AYES [5.59 a.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Jackson, John
Aitken, W. T. Deedes, W. F. Jennings, J. C.
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) de Ferranti, Basil Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Ashton, Sir Hubert Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. Johnson, Erio (Blackley)
Atkins, Humphrey Drayson, G. B. Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Bainiel, Lord du Cann, Edward Joseph, Sir Keith
Barber, Anthony Duncan, Sir James Kaberry, Sir Donald
Barlow, Sir John Duthie, Sir William Kerans, Cdr. J. S.
Barter, John Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshaiton) Kerby, Capt. Henry
Batsford, Brian Elliott, R. W. (N 'wc'stie-upon-Tyne,N.) Kerr, Sir Hamilton
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Emery, Peter Kershaw, Anthony
Berkeley, Hurnphry Errington, Sir Eric Kimball, Marcus
Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth) Farr, John Kirk, Peter
Bidgood, John C. Fell, Anthony Kitson, Timothy
Biggs-Davison, John Finlay, Graeme Lagden, Godfrey
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Fisher, Nigel Lambton, Viscount
Bishop, F. P. Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Langford-Holt, J.
Black, Sir Cyril Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Leather, E. H. C.
Bossom, Clive Freeth, Denzil Leavey, J. A.
Bourne-Arton, A. Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Box, Donald Gammans, Lady Lilley, F. J. P.
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John Gardner, Edward Lindsay, Martin
Boyle, Sir Edward Gibson-Watt, David Linstead, Sir Hugh
Braine, Bernard Glover, Sir Douglas Litchfield, Capt. John
Brewls, John Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)
Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col-SirWalter Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) Longbottom, Charles
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Goodhart, Philip Loveys, Walter H.
Brooman-White, R. Goodhew, Victor Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby
Browne, Percy (Torrington) Cower, Raymond Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bryan, Paul CrantoFerris, wg Cdr. R. MacArthur, Ian
Bullard, Denys Green, Alan McLaren, Martin
Bullus, Wing Commander Eric Gresham Cooke, R. McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia
Butcher, Sir Herbert Grimston, Sir Robert Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden) Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. Maclean,SirFitzroy(Bute&N.Ayrs)
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Gurden, Harold MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)
Carr, Compton (Barone Court) Hall, John (Wycombe) McMaster, Stanley R.
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)
Channon, H. P. G. Harris, Reader (Heston) Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Chataway, Christopher Harrison, Brian (Maidon) Maginnis, John E.
Chichester-Clark, R. Harvey, Sir Arthur Vero (Maeclesf'd) Maitland, Sir John
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Hastings, Stephen Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Hay, John Marten, Nell
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Hendry, Forbes Mathew, Robert (Honiton)
Cleaver, Leonard Hiley, Joseph Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)
Cole, Norman Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Mawby, Ray
Cooper, A. E. Hirst, Geoffrey Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Hobson, John Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
Cordle, John Holland, Philip Mills, Stratton
Corfield, F. V. Holtingworth, John Montgomery, Fergus
Costain, A. P. Hornby, R. P. More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Coulson, J. M. Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia Morgan, William
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives) Naharro, Gerald
Craddock, Sir Bereeford Howard, John (Southampton, Test) Neave, Airey
Crltchley, Julian Hughes-Young, Michael Nicholls, Sir Harmer
Crosthwalte-Eyre, Col. O. E. Hutchison, Michael Clark Noble, Michael
Crowder, F. P. Iremonger, T. L. Oakshott, Sir Hendrie
Cunningham, Knox Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Orr-Ewing, C. Ian
Dalkeith, Earl of Osborn, John (Hallam)
Page, John (Harrow, West) Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey) Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin
Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale) Russell, Ronald Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)
Partridge, E. Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan Turner, Colin
Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) Scott-Hopkins, James Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Peel, John Seymour, Leslie Tweedsmuir, Lady
Percival, Ian Sharpies, Richard van Straubenzee, W. R.
Peyton, John Shaw, M. Vane, W. M. F.
Pike, Miss Mervyn Shepherd, William Vaughan-Morgan, Slr John
PilkIngton, Sir Richard Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn Vickers, Miss Joan
Pitman, I. J. Skeet, T. H. H. Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Pitt, Miss Edith Smithers, Peter Wall, Patrick
Pott, Percivall Spearman, Sir Alexander Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch Stanley, Hon. Richard Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold
Price, David (Eastleigh) Stevens, Geoffrey Watts, James
Prior, J. M. L. Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) Webster, David
Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho Stodart, J. A. Wells, John (Maidstone)
Profumo, Rt. Hon. John Storey, Sir Samuel Whitelaw, William
Proudfoot, Wilfred Studholme, Sir Henry Williams, Dudley (Exeter)
Quennell, Miss J. M. Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury) Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Ramsden, James Talbot, John E. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Rawlinson, Peter Tapsell, Peter Woirige-Gordon, Patrick
Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard
Rees, Hugh Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.) Woodhouse, C. M.
Rees-Davies, W. R. Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.) Woodnutt, Mark
Renton, David Teeling, William Woollam, John
Ridley, Hon. Nicholas Temple, John M. Worsiey, Marcus
Ridsdale, Julian Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Rippon, Geoffrey Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Roots, William Thomas, Peter (Conway) Mr. Edward Wakefield and
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.) Colonel J. H. Harrison.
Abse, Leo Galpern, Sir Myer Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)
Ainsley, William George,LadyMeganLioyd(C'rm'rth'n) Manuel, A. C.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Ginsburg, David Mapp, Charles
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Awbery, Stan Gourlay, Harry Marsh, Richard
Bacon, Miss Alice Greenwood, Anthony Mason, Roy
Beaney, Alan Grey, Charles Mayhew, Christopher
Bence, Cyril (Dunbartonshire, E.) Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Mellish, R. J.
Blackburn, F. Griffiths, W. (Exchange) Mendelson, J. J.
Blyton, William Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Milian, Bruce
Boardman, H. Hamilton, William (West Fife) Milne, Edward J.
Bowden, Herbert W. (Lorca, S.W.) Hannan, William Mitchison, G. R.
Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) Hart, Mrs. Judith Monslow, Walter
Bowles, Frank Hayman, F. H. Morris, John
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Hill, J. (Midlothian) Mulley, Frederick
Brockway, A. Fenner Holman, Percy Neal, Harold
Brown, Alen (Tottenham) Houghton, Douglas Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Hoy, James H. Cram, A. E.
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Oswald, Thomas
Callaghan, James Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Owen, Will
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) PadleY, W. E.
Chetwynd, George Hunter, A. E. Paget, R. T.
Cliffe, Michael Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)
Collick, Percy Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Pargiter, G. A.
Corbett, Mrs. Freda Janner, Sir Barnett Parker, John (Dagenham)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas Parkin, B. T. (Paddington, N.)
Cronin, John Jeger, George Pavitt, Laurence
Crosland, Anthony Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) Pearl, Frederick
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Pentland, Norman
Darling, George Jones, Dan (Burnley) Prentice, R. E.
Davies, C. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Davies, Harold (Leek) Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Probed, Arthur
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Proctor, W. T.
Deer, George Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Pursey, Cmdr. Harry
de Freitas, Geoffrey Kelley, Richard Rankin, John
Delargy, Hugh Kenyon, Clifford Redhead, E. C.
Dempsey, James King, Dr. Horace Reynolds, G. W.
Diamond, John Lawson, George Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Dodds, Norman Ledger, Ron Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Donnelly, Desmond Lee, Frederick (Newton) Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)
Driberg, Tom Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Ross, William
Edelman, Maurice Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Short, Edward
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Fernyhough, E. Loughlin, Charles Skeffington, Arthur
Finch, Harold Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Fitch, Alan McCann, John Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Fletcher, Eric MacColl, James Small, William
Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) McInnes, James Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) McKay, John (Walisend) Snow, Julian
Forman, J. C. Mackie, John Sorensen, R. W.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Spriggs, Leslie
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Steele, Thomas Thompson, Dr. Alan. (Duntermline) Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)
Stewart, Michael (Fulham) Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.) Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Stones, William Thornton, Ernest Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall) Timmons, John Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C) Wainwright, Edwin Winterbottom, R. E.
Swain, Thomas Warbey, William Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Swingler, Stephen Weitzman, David Woof, Robert
Sylvester, George Wells, William (Walsall, N.) Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Symonds, J. B. White, Mrs. Eirene ZIlliacus, K.
Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Whitlock, William
Taylor, John (West Lothian) Wilkins, W. A.
Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) Willey, Frederick TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Williams, D. J. (Neath) Mr. Howell and Dr. Broughton.

Question put, That the Chairman do report the Resolution to the House:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 259, Noes 193.

Division No. 54.] AYES [6.9 a.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Duthie, Sir William Langford-Holt, J.
Aitken, W. T. Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Leather, E. H. C.
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Elliott,R. W. (N 'we'stieoupon-Tyne,N.) Leavey, J. A.
Ashton, Sir Hubert Emery, Peter Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Atkins, Humphrey Errington, Sir Eric Lilley, F. J. P.
Balniel, Lord Farr, John Lindsay, Martin
Barber, Anthony Fell, Anthony Linstead, Sir Hugh
Barlow, Sir John Finlay, Graeme Litchfield, Capt. John
Barter, John Fisher, Nigel Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)
Botsford, Brian Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Longbottom, Charles
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Loveys, Walter H.
Berkeley, Humphry Freeth, Denzil Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby
Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth) Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bidgood, John C. Gammons, Lady MacArthur, Ian
Biggs-Davison, John Gardner, Edward McLaren, Martin
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Gibson-watt, David McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia
Bishop, F. P. Glover, Sir Douglas Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Black, Sir Cyril Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) Maclean,SirFitzroy(Bute&N.Ayrs.)
Bossom, Clive Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)
Bourne-Arton, A. Goodhart, Philip McMaster, Stanley R.
Box, Donald Goodhew, Victor Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John Gower, Raymond Macpherson, Hiatt (Dumfries)
Boyle, Sir Edward Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. Maginnis, John E.
Braine, Bernard Green, Alan Maitland, Sir John
Brewis, John Gresham Cooke, R. Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter Grimston, Sir Robert Marten, Neil
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. Mathew, Robert (Honiton)
Brooman-White, R. Gurden, Harold Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)
Browne, Percy (Torrington) Hall, John (Wycombe) Mawby, Ray
Bryan, Paul Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Bullard, Denys Harris, Reader (Heston) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
BuHuts, Wing Commander Eric Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Mills, Stratton
Butcher, Sir Herbert Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Montgomery, Fergus
Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden) Hastings, Stephen More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Hay, John Morgan, William
Carr, Compton (Barons Court) Hendry, Forbes Naharro, Gerald
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Hiley, Joseph Heave, Airey
Channon, H. P. G. Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Chataway, Christopher Hirst, Geoffrey Noble, Michael
Chichester-Clark, R. Hobson, John Oakshott, Sir Hendrie
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Holland, Philip Orr-Ewing, C. Ian
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Hollingworth, John Osborn, John (Hallam)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Hornby, R. P. Page, John (Harrow, West)
Cleaver, Leonard Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)
Cole, Norman Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives) Partridge, E.
Cooper, A. E. Howard, John (Southampton, Test) Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col.J. K. Hughes-Young, Michael Peel, John
Cordle, John Hutchison, Michael Clark Percival, Ian
Corfield, F. V. Iremonger, T. L. Peyton, John
Costain, A. P. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Pike, Miss Mervyn
Coulson, J. M. Jackson, John Pilkington, Sir Richard
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Jennings, J. C. Pitman, I.J.
Craddock, Sir Beresford Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Pitt, Miss Edith
Critchtey, Julian Johnson, Eric (Blackiey) Pott, Percivall
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch
Crowder, F. P. Joseph, Sir Keith Price, David (Eastleigh)
Cunningham, Knox Kaberry, Sir Donald Prior, J. M. L.
Dalkeith, Earl of Kerans, Cdr. J. S. Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho
d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry Kerby, Capt. Henry Profumo, Rt. Hon. John
Deedes, W. F. Kerr, Sir Hamilton Proudfoot, Wilfred
de Ferrarati, Basil Kershaw, Anthony Quennell, Miss J. M.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. Kimball, Marcus Ramsden, James
Drayson, G. B. Kirk, Peter Rawlinson, Peter
du Cann, Edward Kitson, Timothy Retimayne, Rt. Hon. Martin
Duncan, Sir James Lagden, Godfrey Rees, Hugh
Lambton, Viscount Rees-Davies, W. R.
Renton, David Storey, Sir Sampel Vickers, Miss Joan
Ridley, Hon. Nicholas Studholme, Sir Henry Wakefield, Sir WaveIt (St. M'lebone)
Ridsdaie, Julian Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury) Wall, Patrick
Rippon, Geoffrey Talbot, John E. Ward, Dame Irene
Roots, William Tapseil, Peter Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Watts, James
Hoyle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey) Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.) Webster, David
Russell, Ronald Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan Teeling, William White-law, William
Scott-Hopkins, James Temple, John M. Williams, Dudley (Exeter)
Seymour, Leslie Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Sharpies, Richard Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Shaw, M. Thomas, Peter (Conway) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Shepherd, William Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.) Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin Woodhouse, C. M.
Skeet, T. H. H. Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) Woodnutt, Mark
SmitherS, Peter Turner, Colin Woollam, John
Spearman, Sir Alexander Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. Woreley, Marcus
Stanley, Hon. Richard Tweedsmuir, Lady
Stevens, Geoffrey van Straubenzee, W. R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) Vane, W. M. F. Mr. Edward Wakefield and
Stodart, J. A. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John Colonel J. H. Harrison.
Abse, Leo Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly) Mulley, Frederick
Ainsley, William Griffiths, W. (Exchange) Neal, Harold
Aliaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvll (Colne Valley) Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Hamilton, William (West Fife) Oram, A. E.
Awbery, Stan Hannan, William Oswald, Thomas
Bacon, Miss Hart, Mrs. Judith Owen, Will
Alice Beaney, Alan Hayman, F. H. Padley, W. E.
Bence, Cyril (Dunbartonshire, E.) Hill, J. (Midlothian) Paget, R. T.
Blackburn, F. Holman, Percy Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)
Blyton, William Houghton, Douglas Pargiter, G. A.
Boardman, H. Howell, Charles A. Parker, John (Dagenham)
Bowden, Herbert W. (Leice, S.W.) Hoy, James H. Parkin, B. T. (Paddington, N.)
Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Pavitt, Laurence
Bowles, Frank Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Pearl, Frederick
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Pentland, Norman
Brockway, A. Fenner Hunter, A. E. Prentice, R. E.
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Brown, Alan (Tottenham) Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Probert, Arthur
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Janner, Sir Barnett Proctor, W. T.
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas Purley, Cmdr. Harry
Callaghan, James Jeger, George Rankin, John
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Jenkins, Roy (Stethford) Redhead, E. C.
Chetwynd, George Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Reynolds, G. W.
Cliffe, Michael Jones, Dan (Burnley) Roberts, Goronvry (Caernarvon)
Cohick, Percy Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Corbel, Mrs. Freda Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Ross, William
Cronin, John Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Short, Edward
Crosland, Anthony Kelley, Richard Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Kenyon, Clifford Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Darling, George King, Dr. Horace Skeffington, Arthur
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Ledger, Ron Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Davies, Harold (Leek) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Deer, George Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Small, William
de Freitas, Geoffrey Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Delargy, Hugh Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Snow, Julian
Dempsey, James Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) Sorensen, R. W.
Diamond, John Loughlin, Charles Spriggs, Leslie
Dodds, Norman Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson Steele, Thomas
Donnelly, Desmond McCann, John Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Driberg, Tom MacColl, James Stones, William
Edelman, Maurice McInnes, James Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) McKay, John (Walleend) Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stokeoon-Trent,C.)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mackie, John Swain, Thomas
Fernyhough, E. MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Swingler, Stephen
Finch, Harold Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Sylvester, George
Fitch, Alan Matlaileu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.) Symonds, J. B.
Fletcher, Eric Manuel, A. C. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) Mapp, Charles Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)
Forman, J. C. Marsh, Richard Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Mason, Roy Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh Mayhew, Christopher Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)
Ga.Mem, Sir Myer Mellish, R. J. Thornton, Ernest
George,LadyMeganLloyd(C'rm'rth'n) Mendelson, J. J. Timmons, John
Ginsburg, David Milian, Bruce Wainwright, Edwin
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Milne, Edward J. Warbey, William
Gourley, Harry Mltchison, G. R. Weitzman, David
Greenwood, Anthony Monslow, Walter Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Grey, Charles Morris, John White, Mrs. Eirene
Whitlock, William Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) Yates, victor (Ladywood)
Wilkins, W. A. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) Zilliaous, K.
Willey, Frederick Winterbottom, R. E.
Williams, D. J. (Neath) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Williams, LI. (Abertillery) Woof Robert TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) Mr. Ifor Davies and Mr. Dawson.

Report to be received this day.