HC Deb 09 February 1961 vol 634 cc765-83

10.26 p.m.

Mr. Speaker

Queen's Recommendation?

Mr. Kenneth Robinson (St. Pancras, North)

Mr. Speaker, this is a Money Resolution on a Bill which imposes charges on Her Majesty's subjects totalling nearly £3 million. Are we not to have a word of explanation from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury?

Mr. Speaker

I think that the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The present stage is that I have asked about the Queen's Recommendation.

[Queen's Recommendation signified.]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Commitees).

[Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

Motion made, and Question proposed.

That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision with respect to charges for the provision of dental and optical appliances and dental services, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under the National Health Service Act, 1946, or the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947;

(b) the payment into the Exchequer of any increase attributable to the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable into the Exchequer under the National Health Service Act, 1951, or the National Health Service Act, 1952. —[Mr. Powell.]

Mr. Robinson

I must apologise, Sir Gordon, for being a little premature, but I will repeat what I said to the House. This is a Money Resolution attaching to a Bill which imposes upon the subject charges amounting to nearly £3 million. Are we not to have a word of explanation as to the effect of this from either the Financial Secretary or the Minister of Health or even the Secretary of State for Scotland?

The Minister of Health (Mr. J. Enoch Powell)

If it would be to the convenience of the Committee, I will gladly explain the simple reason for the two parts of this Money Resolution. The two parts provide, respectively, for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of increases attributable to the Bill if it becomes an Act and for the payment into the Exchequer of increases attributable to the Act. These two provisions are required for the following reasons.

The Committee will be aware that the Bill to which a Second Reading has just been given makes provision for two important exemptions from charges which have hitherto been levied. They have to be treated as additional payments out of the Exchequer, since the payments which will have to be made by the Exchequer to the dentists and to the opticians will be increased each year by the amount of the cost of the two exemptions. That is the reason for paragraph (a) of the Money Resolution.

The reason for paragraph (b) is that the increased charges will, in the case of hospital out-patients, although of hospital out-patients only, be paid into the Exchequer. Where increased charges are paid by the patients in the general dental and the ophthalmic services, the effect will be merely to decrease the outgoings from the Exchequer. Those are the reasons for the two provisions in the Money Resolution.

Mr. George Brown (Belper)

I have seldom heard such an ingenuous—it would be better, perhaps, to say "disingenuous"—explanation. The Minister has set out—[Interruption.] Would the recumbent hon. Member like to identify himself?

Mr. A. R. Wise (Rugby)

As the right hon. Gentleman may have suspected, I acknowledged his challenge in the normal way when seated, which was to incline forwards. Naturally, I was unable to rise to my feet while the right hon. Gentleman was still on his. All I said was that I thought he might well shorten what he is obviously going to say simply by saying that he could not understand what the Minister had told him.

10.30 p.m.

Mr. Brown

There are some people of whom it is said that they are wise by name and wise by nature. That clearly does not apply in this case.

Mr. Gerald Nabarro (Kidderminster)

Very poor.

Mr. Brown

All right. We have a certain amount of time. If the hon. Member wishes to help us, by all means let him do so. [Interruption.] You will notice, Sir Gordon, that there are an awful lot of hon. Members speaking while sitting down. [AN HON. MEMBER: "The right hon. Gentleman is standing up."] There are an awful lot of hon. Members over there who could not stand up unaided. While we fight for the people, the ex-Smoke Room boys come in here.

If we can get hon. Members opposite back to the point, the Minister sought to persuade the Committee—that part of the Committee that was open to understand what he was saying—that the only point about this Money Resolution was that it was to help expectant mothers under paragraph (a)—it was really a gift to them—and it was a gift to somebody else under paragraph (b). Really the Money Resolution was, he suggested, a beneficent act of a benevolent Government distributing public money to poor people.

I thought that for the right hon. Gentleman that was a very disingenuous act. He knows as well as I know, as well as this side of the Committee knows—for, as we well understand, that side of the Committee knows nothing—that if it were not for a Bill, on which we have spent the whole day putting charges on poor people, there would be no occasion for this Money Resolution to try to make it a little less bad for a few poor people. I have never heard a Minister so mislead the Committee about the purposes of a Measure—and with the Minister doing that awful, false laugh. And the face that he is now making is no improvement on the previous one. Doing that awful false laugh with his lips and not with his eyes does not make it any better.

The fact is that we have spent the whole day imposing charges on people for services which we ought to be glad to render to them at a cost which we ought to be glad to share, when we do not need the services, to help our poor fellow-sufferers who do need them. We have spent the whole day imposing charges, and it is contrary to any natural feeling that the Minister should get up tonight and pretend that this Money Resolution is for the purpose of distributing money. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to try again and to tell us really what the Money Resolution is for. I ask him to make it per- fectly plain to his hon. Friends, who will vote with him whatever he says but who ought to have it explained to them, just what they are voting for.

Let him make it plain to them that this Money Resolution is absolutely essential in order that he can do what his Bill requires—in order that a lot of poor people, a lot of sick people, a lot of suffering people may be forced to pay money which at the moment they do not have to pay.

Mr. E. G. Willis (Edinburgh, East)

I want to put a question to the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Bill applies to Scotland. The Minister of Health, explaining this Money Resolution, told us that we had to have paragraph (a) of the Resolution because certain charges were being remitted, and he made play with that. Accordingly, what I want to know from the Secretary of State for Scotland, who, I am sure, in his usual assiduous fashion, has carefully gone into this in so far as it affects Scotland, is, what is this sum which will be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament to meet any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under the …. National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947. I think that is a perfectly fair question. [Interruption.] Certainly it is. If the Government come to the people of Scotland and tell the people of Scotland that they are making a gift, we have a right to ask the right hon. Gentleman what the gift is, and what this sum is going to amount to.

Hon. Members

Does he know?

Dr. J. Dickson Mabon (Greenock)

He ought to know.

Mr. Willis

I will give the right hon. Gentleman the opportunity of obtaining the necessary information. I am quite sure we can find other questions while he is doing that—unless, of course, he has the information at hand.

These sums are payable under two Acts of Parliament—one for Scotland—and these sums must have been differentiated by somebody. Therefore, I am quite sure that the experts in the Treasury, and in the Ministry of Health in England, and the Department of Health in Scotland, must know.

Mr. George Thomas (Cardiff, West)

Where is the Minister for Welsh Affairs?

Mr. Willis

I have not yet discovered what the amount is. [Interruption.]

The Chairman

Order. I cannot hear the hon. Member.

Mr. Willis

I am grateful for your protection, Sir Gordon, and may I repeat—

Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, West)

I still cannot hear.

Mr. Willis

I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) will ask his own questions. I want to be sure that we get this information and that the Scottish Members in particular know what it is that we are being given.

Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)

It is quite obvious that we need a good deal more information about this Financial Resolution before the Committee can be expected to pass it. I thought that the brief explanation which the Minister sought to give was not only disingenuous, but very superficial. He made no attempt to explain the precise scope of the Financial Resolution.

Paragraph 3 of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum gays that the exemptions which are contained in subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 1 will cost an additional £270,000 a year and, as I understand it, the whole object of the Financial Resolution is to provide the basis on which the committee dealing with the Bill in Committee can deal with the charge to the Revenue.

Many of my hon. and right hon. Friends feel that the exemptions mentioned in Clause I do not go far enough. For example, I observe that in subsection (3) exemptions are provided only for children under 16 years of age and expectant mothers or mothers who have borne a child within the previous twelve months. I am sure that, in view of the Second Reading debate, when the Bill reaches Committee some of my hon. and right hon. Friends will urge that those exemptions are too narrow and ought to be extended.

I therefore want to ask the Minister to tell us whether the Financial Resolution is so drawn as to preclude attempts by my hon. and right hon. Friends to widen the scope of the exemptions. The right hon. Gentleman will have appreciated from the whole tenor of the Second Reading debate that we are interested not so much in the additional charges as in the exemptions which are to be made. We do not want to find when we come to the Committee stage that, because of the terms of this Financial Resolution, we shall be unable to move Amendments designed to extend the scope of the exemptions. I hope that the Minister will give us a clear and unambiguous answer to that question.

Contrary to most Financial Resolutions, there is no limit in this. It is curiously worded and I cannot recollect having seen a Financial Resolution which does not deal specifically with the kind of amount that the Committee may be able to authorise.

Secondly, I think that the Committee is entitled to a further explanation about paragraph (b) of the Resolution, because it deals not with the Acts of 1946 and 1947, but with the National Health Service Acts of 1951 and 1952. The whole of the subject has aroused so much concern and anxiety in the country that it will obviously be desirable for the Committee to ventilate it to the fullest possible extent, and we shall be anxious to move Amendments with the object of considerably extending the scope of the exemptions which, the Minister has already conceded, are required and which we consider not to go nearly far enough.

Before we pass this Resolution, will the Minister be good enough to give us an assurance that we shall not be precluded by the narrow terms of the Resolution from putting down Amendments in the sense that I have indicated?

Several Hon. Members


The Chairman

Mr. Silverman.

10.45 p.m.

Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne)

I apologise for my hesitation in rising, Sir Gordon, but I find it almost as difficult tonight to hear what you are saying as I found it last night, though perhaps not for quite the same reason.

I should like to say a word on the point mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher).

As I read the Resolution, it seems to be wide enough to cover any Amendments that we might happen to persuade the Committee to accept in the later stages of the Bill. The first paragraph says: That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision with respect to charges for the provision of dental and optical appliances and dental services … It is not limited to the charges in the Bill at the moment. It refers to any charges which may be in the Bill by the time the House parts with it, by the time we come to the Report stage or to the Third Reading.

I know that he cannot rule about it because that is a matter for the Chair, but was it the Minister's intention to draw the Money Resolution wide enough to cover any of the Amendments which my hon. Friend had in mind?

Mr. Hector Hughes (Aberdeen, North): When the Minister rises to reply to the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) will be give us the figures? My hon. Friend referred to paragraph (a). The relevant part of the Resolution reads as follows: That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session … (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable … under … the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947". Presumably the sum of money involved there is not one lump sum, fixed once and for all. It is presumably an annual sum which has 'been varied and variable since the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947, was passed. Presumably there must have been a different sum for 1947–48, 1948–49, 1949–50, 1950–51, and so on, up to the present time. I gather that the Minister is a mathematician—

Mr. G. Brown

No, a Greek scholar.

Mr. Hughes

I do not know whether he is a Greek scholar, but I certainly do not want him to reply in Greek. I gathered from his speech that he is also a poet. He may, if he likes, reply in Latin. I shall be able to understand him if he does. Even though he may not be a mathematician, the general purpose of my question is to discover the figures for each year from 1947 to the present time.

Mr. G. Thomas

If I may, with the permission of the Patronage Secretary— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—I get a little tired of hearing some of my hon. Friends—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and hon. Gentlemen opposite always give me the impression of being tired. I get a little tired—

Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow)

On a point of order. I did not clearly hear my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas), but I wondered whether he said "tired" or "tight."

Mr. Thomas

When my hon. Friend asks such a question I wonder where he has been.

I rise on behalf of the people of Wales. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We are reputed to have a watch-dog for Welsh Affairs who sits on the Front Bench opposite. It is quite clear that he has gone to his kennel. We have not been privileged to see the Minister for Welsh Affairs.

We have a special interest in this Money Resolution because we have been told that the people of Wales have drawn on the dental services—[Interruption.] Does my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) wish me to wait? I do not wish to interrupt him. [An HON. MEMBER: "He is the watchdog."] I am not very easily put off, but I must say that I am a bit surprised at the way hon. Members opposite are behaving. I hope that if the Secretary of State for Scotland is going to answer my Scottish hon. Friends and give them the information for which they asked concerning the part of the Money Resolution which relates to Scotland, the Minister of Health, in the absence of his right hon. Friend the Minister for Welsh Affairs.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—I think that my hon. Friends are unnecessarily impatient. We are better off without him.

I believe that we have a right to ask the Minister of Health to tell the people of Wales how much of this £3 million is likely to find its way into Welsh pockets. In the meantime—

Mr. Richard Marsh (Greenwich)

In the absence of the Minister for Welsh Affairs, would not my hon. Friend be prepared to accept a statement from the Secretary of State for the Colonies?

Mr. Thomas

The Welsh are very proud people. That suggestion is quite unworthy of my hon. Friend; I am a little surprised at him.

I only want to ask that the Minister of Health, who is himself a Welshman, as he reminds us when he is in Wales, should give us a detailed statement as to how the Principality will be affected by the terms of this Money Resolution.

Mr. G. W. Reynolds (Islington, North)

I also want to know something about the limitation to be placed upon Amendments in Committee by the Financial Resolution. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) asked about the possibility of extending the exemptions from the new charges now proposed, and my question is on similar lines. We have in front of us a National Health Service Bill, the contents of which I completely disagree with. At the same time, it appears to me from the Long Title that if suitable Amendments were made we might almost get rid of all these charges in Committee. That would mean that we would need more money to be given from the Exchequer towards the cost of running the National Health Service. I should like to know from the Government whether the terms of the Money Resolution would prevent us from reducing the charges to a purely nominal level, in accordance with the Long Title of the Bill. Would the Money Resolution allow us to do that, or would it preclude us from doing so?

I am also concerned with paragraph (b) of the Resolution. I understood that one of the principal arguments for the measures which we are debating this week was that we must provide further money for hospital expansion. Yet, as I understand that paragraph, all the moneys which the hospitals collect by way of additional charges are not to be kept by them for that expansion but are to be handed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to use for whatever purpose he likes. The paragraph says that the sums shall be payable into the Exchequer. If the idea is to provide more money for the hospital service, why should we make provision in the Money Resolution for the money intended to be for the hospital service to be taken from the hospitals and given to the Exchequer?

I hope that those two points can be answered. If they are not answered to my satisfaction I shall feel compelled to vote against the Money Resolution.

Mr. Douglas Jay (Battersea, North)

I express the hope that the Minister will be permitted to reply to the questions which have been addressed to him tonight. So far as I can understand the Minister's original remarks, which were very brief and rather difficult to hear, he attempted to convey to the Committee the impression that what the Money Resolution did was to give him the power to put out various sums of money from the Exchequer to various people in need, in the matter of dental and optical treatment. It seemed to me that the Minister rather slurred over paragraph (b). If that is so, he gave a very misleading impression to the Committee, and I am sure that hon. Members opposite, whatever their demeanour, would wish to know what Resolution the House of Commons is now being asked to pass.

Paragraph (b) provides that it is expedient for the payment into the Exchequer of any increase attributable to the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable into the Exchequer under the National Health Service Act, 1951, or the National Health Service Act, 1952. I presume that that means that we are here dealing not with moneys paid out in the form of benefits but with charges levied upon the public. If that is correct we would wish to know what amounts will be paid into the Exchequer under the Resolution and what amounts will be paid out. If we take paragraph (b) together wth paragraph 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill—and I am sure that hon. Members opposite will have studied them—it would appear that the Resolution gives power for the sum of £3 million to be raised from the public and for a much smaller sum—in a full year, £270,000—to be paid out for the purpose of this service.

Am I right in thinking that, putting these together, the Resolution provides for a levy upon the public of a charge of £3 million, less £270,000 in a full year, and that the corresponding sum in the year 1961–62 is in the region of £1,750,000? Is that the case? If it is not, will the right hon. Gentleman explain the facts? I hope that he will be permitted to reply. If we are imposing a charge here of nearly £3 million, I submit that the Minister's original introduction was extremely misleading and disingenous.

Mr. Powell

On this occasion, the right hon. Gentleman, my fellow ex-F.S.T.,—

Mr. G. Brown

What is that?

Mr. Powell

—is mistaken about the Money Resolution. I should first like to answer the question put to me—

Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas (Leicester, North-East)

On a point of order. May we be told which of the many languages known by the Minister of Health he is using at this moment?

The Chairman

I thought he was speaking in English.

Mr. Powell

The hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) asked me—

Hon. Members

What does "F.S.T." mean?

Mr. Powell

It means "Financial Secretary to the Treasury."

Mr. Brown

We have forgiven him for that.

Mr. Powell

The hon. Member for Islington, East asked whether the terms of paragraph (a) of the Money Resolution were wide enough to admit of any increase in the exemptions as they are provided by the Bill at the moment. The answer to that, as his hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) apprehended, is "Yes." The effect of paragraph (a) is quite general and allows for any increase attributable to this Bill when it becomes an Act. So the answer to the question is, "Yes."

Mr. Fletcher

This is very important and the Committee should get it clear. Are we now to understand that it will be open to the Committee to put down an Amendment the effect of which would be to increase exemptions under the Bill without any limit, so that if the Committee so desired it could decide to absorb the whole of the £3 million additional charges to which we are so violently opposed by granting further exemptions?

11.0 p.m.

Mr. Powell

Any increase attributable to this Bill as passed—any increase, whatever exemptions it includes when passed,—will be able to be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament within the terms of the Money Resolution.

I am afraid, however, that I cannot respond equally to the invitation of the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen. North (Mr. Hector Hughes), because the increase referred to in the first paragraph of the Money Resolution is not an increase which has taken place in past years. The increase is in the sums to be paid out of the moneys provided by Parliament which will take place under this Bill when it becomes an Act. And since I have just told the hon. Member for Islington, East that it is completely open and does not prejudice exemptions which may be in the Bill when it becomes an Act, it follows that I cannot state the amount of the increase which will eventually be attributable to this Measure in the sums payable—

Mr. Hector Hughes

Are they annual sums?

Mr. Powell

Parliament does account for money annually and, in that sense, they are annual sums. Perhaps the point the hon. and learned Gentleman fails to apprehend is that they are future and not past payments. That answer also precludes me from responding to the invitation of the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas), because, again, I cannot know what sums exactly will go in or out within the ambit of paragraphs (a) and (b) of the Resolution.

Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas

Even though he cannot give the exact figures, cannot the Minister at least give the proportion as between England, Wales and Scotland?

Mr. Powell

I think the hon. and learned Member will find that that question is largely answered by the second part of my reply, which I will give presently to my fellow ex-Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay).

Referring to the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Reynolds), the second paragraph of the Resolution is just as much at large as the first paragraph and does not limit upwards or downwards the increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable into the Exchequer. In so far as those sums are received by hospitals, under the system of accounting they must be accounted for as paid into the Exchequer, but that in no way prejudices the application within the Health Service of any sum devoted to the Health Service, however received and from whatever source.

Coming finally to the other part of the query of the right hon. Gentleman, he asked me to indicate whether paragraph (b) covers the lion's share of the sums with which the Bill deals. The answer is that it does not. In so far as the increased charges are payable within the general dental and ophthalmic services there will be no resultant increase in sums paid into the Exchequer, because the charges levied within the general and ophthalmic services are not paid into the Exchequer but only go to diminish the sums which have to be paid to the dentists and opticians under the respective Acts Consequently, the only reference in paragraph (b) is to the increase in charges levied upon out-patients at the hospitals which, as I have just told the hon. Member for Islington, North, are accounted for as paid into the Exchequer.

Finally, as I apprehend that it is possibly in the minds of hon. Members opposite to divide against the Money Resolution, may I point out that whereas £20,000—£30,000 of extra charges is involved in paragraph (b), if paragraph (a) is not passed, no exemptions whatever can be made under the Bill—so perhaps they will take that into account.

Mr. G. Brown

That was a very nice comment at the very end. I understood the Minister to say that he could not estimate the effect of the Bill on the Exchequer because there were so many imponderables and unknowns. If I may follow his shorthand language, with the permission of the C.P.S. and that of the L.O.H. sitting there to protect him, will the ex-F.S.T. and present M.O.H. have another shot at it? Will he please tell us what is the give-away under paragraph (a) and what is the extra charge under paragraph (b)? We need to know both figures.

The Chairman

May I remind hon. Members that under Standing Order 1A I have to put the Question at 11.13 p.m.

Mr. Brown

But surely, Sir Gordon, you would not refuse the ex-F.S.T. the opportunity to reply. If you find any difficulty, the C.P.S. will help you out.

Mr. Powell

I think it would be just as well for hon. and right hon. Members opposite to know that as the Bill stands at the moment—

Mr. Brown

It is N.B.G.

Mr. Powell

—although I have explained that it does not inhibit amendment of the Bill, the financial effect is that exemptions to the value of £270,000 a year are permitted under paragraph (a), but charges of about £20,000 per annum are covered under paragraph (b).

Mr. Jay

The Minister of Health, whether he talks in words or in letters, seems to make the matter about as clear as mud.

Mr. Brown


Mr. Jay

I ask him this plain question. Is he now trying to induce the Committee to believe that under paragraph (b) the Government propose to raise sums of not more than £20,000 or £30,000 from the subjects? In spite of that, we are informed in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Bill that the saving to the Exchequer from the additional charges in a full year is estimated to be a little under £3 million.

Mr. Brown

E. and O.E.

Mr. Jay

Will the Minister please explain to us in simple English words how his £20,000 or £30,000 are related to the £3 million?

Mr. Powell

It is only those increased charges which are levied on hospital outpatients which will be paid into the Exchequer and which are therefore covered by paragraph (b). This Money Resolution is not necessary at all—[Interruption]—in order to make it possible to levy the higher charges in the general dental and ophthalmic services.

Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South East)

In one of those favourable reviews which have been recently appearing about the Minister it was said that he was lucid to the point of incomprehensibility.

It being thirteen minutes after Eleven o'clock, three quarters of an hour after the House had resolved itself into the Committee, The CHAIRMAN put the Question pursuant to Standing Order No. 1A (Exemptions from Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House)).

The Committee proceeded to a Division

Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Sir Gordon. Is it not an abuse of the procedure of this Committee to have a Resolution put which the mover says is utterly unnecessary?

The Chairman

That is not what the right hon. Gentleman said.

The Committee divided: Ayes 269, Noes 199.

Division No. 44.] AYES [11.13 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Foster, John Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Aitken, W. T. Freeth, Denzil MacArthur, Ian
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Galbraith, Hon. T. G. 0. McLaren, Martin
Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian (Preston, N.) Gammans, Lady McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia
Arbuthnot, John Gardner, Edward Maolay, Rt. Hon. John
Ashton, Sir Hubert Glover, Sir Douglas Maclean,SirFitzroy (Bute&N.Ayrs.)
Atkins, Humphrey Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)
Balniel, Lord Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)
Barber, Anthony Godber, J. B. McMaster, Stanley R.
Barlow, Sir John Goodhart, Philip Macmlllan,Rt.Hn.Harold (Bromley)
Barter, John Goodhew, Victor Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)
Batsford, Brian Gower, Raymond Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate) Grant, Rt. Hon. William Maddan, Martin
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R, Maitland, Sir John
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) Green, Alan Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth) Gresham Cooke, R. Markham, Major Sir Frank
Bidgood, John c. Grimston, Sir Robert Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest
Biggs-Davison. John Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. Marten, Neil
Bingham, R. M. Gurden, Harold Mathew, Robert (Honiton)
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Hall, John (Wycombe) Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)
Bishop, F. P. Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) Mawby, Ray
Black, Sir Cyril Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Bossom, Clive Harris, Reader (Heston) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
Bourne-Arton, A, Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Mills, Stratton
Box, Donald Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Montgomery, Fergus
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Boyle, Sir Edward Harvie Anderson, Miss Morgan, William
Braine, Bernard Hastings, Stephen Mott-Radctyffe, Sir Charles
Brewis, John Hay, John Nabarro, Gerald
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Neave, Airey
Browne, Percy (Torrington) Hendry, Forbes Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Bryan, Paul Hicks Beach, Maj. W. Nicholson, Sir Godfrey
Bullard, Denys Hiley, Joseph Noble, Michael
Burden, F. A. Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) Nugent, Sir Richard
Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A. (Saffron Walden) Hinohingbrooke, Viscount Oakshott, Sir Hendrie
Carr, Compton (Barons Court) Hobson, John Osborn, John (Hallam)
Channon, H. P. G. Hooking, Philip N. Osborne, Cyril (Louth)
Chataway, Christopher Holland, Philip Page, John (Harrow, West)
Chichester-Clark, R. Hollingworth, John Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Hopkins, Alan Partridge, E.
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Hornby, R. P. Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia Peel, John
Cleaver, Leonard Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives) Percival, Ian
Cooper, A. E. Howard, John (Southampton, Test) Pike, Miss Mervyn
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John Pilkington, Sir Richard
Cordie, John Hughes-Young, Michael Pitman, I. J.
Corfield, F. V. Hutchison, Michael Clark Pitt, Miss Edith
Costain, A. P. Iremonger, T. L- Pott, Percivall
Coulson, J. M. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Jackson, John Price, David (Eastleigh)
Craddock, Sir Beresford James, David Prior, J. M. L.
Critchley, Julian Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E. Jennings, J. C. Profumo, Rt. Hon. John
Crowder, F. P. Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Proudfoot, Wilfred
Cunningham, Knox Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Quennell, Miss J. M.
Curran, Charles Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Rawllnson, Peter
Currie, G. B. H. Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green) Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin
Dance, James Joseph, Sir Keith Rees, Hugh
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Kaberry, Sir Donald Renton, David
Deedes, W. F. Kerans, Cdr. J. S. Ridley, Hon. Nicholas
de Ferranti, Basil Kerr, Sir Hamilton Ridsdale, Julian
Digby, Simon Wingfield Kershaw, Anthony Roots, William
Doughty, Charles Kimball, Marcus Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Drayson, G. B. Kirk, Peter Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)
du Cann, Edward Kitson, Timothy Scott-Hopkins, James
Eden, John Lancaster, Col. C. G. Seymour, Leslie
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Langford-Holt, J. Sharpies, Richard
Elliott,R. W. (N 'wc'stle-upon-Tyne,N.) Leavey, J. A. Shaw, M.
Emery, Peter Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Shepherd, William
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Lindsay, Martin Skeet, T. H. H.
Errington, sir Eric Linstead, Sir Hugh Smithers, Peter
Farey-Jones, F. W. Litchfield, Capt. John Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)
Fell, Anthony Longbortom, Charles Spearman, Sir Alexander
Finlay, Graeme Longden, Gilbert Stanley, Hon. Richard
Fisher, Nigel Loveys, Walter H. Stevens, Geoffrey
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby Steward, Harold (Stockport, s.)
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Studholme, Sir Henry Tilney, John (Wavertree) Whitelaw, William
Summers, Sir Spenoer (Aylesbury) Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. Williams, Dudley (Exeter)
Sumner, Donald (Orpington) Vane, W. M. F. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Talbot, John E. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Tapsell, Peter Vickers, Miss Joan Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Taylor, W.J. (Bradford, N.) vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis Wise, A. R.
Teeling, William Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Temple, John M. Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone) Woodhouse, c. M.
Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek Woodnutt, Mark
Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Wall, Patrick Woollam, John
Thomas, Peter (Conway) Ward, Dame Irene Worsley, Marcus
Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.) Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin Watts, James Mr. Gibson-Watt and Mr. J. E B. Hill
Abse, Leo Hamilton, William (West Fife) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Ainsley, William Hannan, William Parkin, B. T. (Paddington, N.)
Albu, Austen Hart, Mrs. Judith Pavitt, Laurence
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hayman, F. H. Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Healey, Denis Peart, Frederick
Awbery, Stan Henderson, Rt.Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis) Pentland, Norman
Bacon, Miss Alice Hewitson, Capt. M. Plummer, Sir Leslie
Baird, John Hilton, A. V. Prentice, R. E.
Beaney, Alan Holman, Percy Prober!, Arthur
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Holt, Arthur Pursey, Cmdr. Harry
Biyton, William Houghton, Douglas Rankin, John
Boardman, H. Howell, Charles A. Redhead, E. C.
Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S.W.) Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Reynolds, G. W.
Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Bowles, Frank Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Brockway, A. Fenner Hunter, A. E. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Panoras, N.)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Hynd, John (Attercllfe) Ross, William
Brown, Alan (Tottenham) Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Beiper) Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Janner, Sir Bamett Skeffington, Arthur
Callaghan, James Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Jeger, George Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Chetwynd, George Jenkins, Roy (Steohford) Small, William
Ciiffe, Michael Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creeoh (Wakefield) Snow, Julian
Craddook, George (Bradford, S.) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Sorensen, R. W.
Crorrin, John Jones, Jaok (Rotherham) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Crosland, Anthony Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Spriggs, Leslie
Crossman, R. H, S. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Kelley, Richard Stonehouse, John
Darling, George Kenyon, Clifford Stones, William
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) King, Dr. Horace Strachey, Rt. Hon. John
Davies, Harold (Leek) Lawson, George Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Ledger, Ron Stross,Dr.Bamett (Stoke-on-Trent,C.)
Davies, S. 0. (Merthyr) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Swain, Thomas
Deer, George Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Swingler, Stephen
de Freitas, Geoffrey Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Sylvester, George
Delargy, Hugh Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) Symonds, J. B.
Dempsey, James Loughlln, Charlet Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Diamond, John Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)
Dodds, Norman MacColl, James Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)
Donnelly, Desmond Molnnes, James Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)
Driberg, Tom McKay, John (Wallsend) Timmons, John
Ede, Rt. Hon. C. Mackle, John Tomney, Frank
Edelman, Maurice McLeavy, Frank Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Wade, Donald
Edwards, Walter (Stepney) Mallalleu, E. L. (Brigg) Walnwright, Edwin
Evans, Albert Manuel, A. C. Warbey, William
Fernyhough, E. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Watkins, Tudor
Finch, Harold Marsh, Richard wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Fletcher, Eric Mason, Roy White, Mrs. Eirene
Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) Mayhew, Christopher Whitlock, William
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mellish, R. J. Wilcook, Group Capt. C. A. B.
Forman, J. C. Mendelson, J. J. Wilkins, W. A.
Galtskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh Millan, Bruce Willey, Frederick
Galpen, Sir Myer Milne, Edward J. Williams, D. J. (Neath)
George, LadyMeganLloyd (C'rm'rth'n) Mitohison, G. R. Williams, LI. (Abertlllery)
Glnsburg, David Morris, John Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Mulley, Frederick Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Gourlay, Harry Neal, Harold Winterbottom, R. E.
Greenwood, Anthony Oram, A. E. Woof, Robert
Grey, Charles Oswald, Thomas Wyatt, Woodrow
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Owen, Will Yates, Victor (Ladvwood)
Griffiths, W. (Exchange) Padley, W. E. Zilliacus, K.
Grimond, J. Paget, R. T.
Gunter, Ray Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) Pargiter, G. A. Mr. Rogers and Mr. Short.

Resolution to be reported.

Resolution to be received Tomorrow.