PERSONAL STATEMENTS (Hansard, 19 December 1961)

§ Sir T. Low
I apologise to the House for taking up one or two minutes of its time.
In yesterday's debate the hon. Member for Cardiff, South East (Mr. Callaghan) referred to what he called a "roll of dishonour"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Roll of honour."]—in Reynolds News of 17th December which included my name. I did not know that the hon. Gentleman was going to do this. Since the implication of what he said was that in my private capacity I had not followed the Chancellor's request for a dividend pause, whereas I had supported it here, I desire to make this personal statement.
No company of which I am a director has acted contrary to the Chancellor's request about dividends. The dividend declared in August by the company referred to in the article in Reynolds News and to which the hon. Gentleman made reference, was at the rate publicly indicated by the chairman of the company in March. 1961, five months before—

§ Sir T. Moore
Hear, hear.

§ Mr. Manuel
That is the whole point.

§ Sir T. Low
—in a statement which amounted to a public commitment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and on the basis of which many shares had changed hands. This was made clear to the Press in August at the time of the dividend announcement.
The Chancellor, in his statement of 25th July, acceded that regard would have to be had to commitments already entered into. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am taking steps to draw the attention of Reynolds News to the facts and to ask for a correction and an apology.

§ Mr. Driberg
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since a personal statement is not debatable, should it not also be non-controversial?

§ Mr. Speaker
Nobody makes a statement in a personal explanation unless a script has been previously submitted to the Chair and the Chair does not regard it as containing controversial matter.

§ Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley
Since my name was mentioned by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan)—

§ Mr. A. Lewis
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you to advise the House on what is the procedure for this matter? During yesterday's debate these hon. Members had every opportunity to refute what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), but neither of them, to the best of my knowledge and belief, was present. Is it not the case that you usually allow statements—

§ Mr. Speaker
There is no point of order in that as far as I know. I do not know whether the hon. Members were then present or not. The right hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Sir T. Low) said that he did not know what the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) was going to do.

§ Mr. Lawson
Can you let hon. Members on this side of the House who regard these statements as controversial know what their position is when a so-called non-controversial statement is made, Mr. Speaker?

§ Mr. Speaker
Yes, I think they should put down a Motion criticising the Chair, because they are disagreeing with the Chair's view, for a wrong exercise of its judicial discretion.

§ Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley
Mr. Speaker, since my name was also mentioned yesterday by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East and also in the Reynolds News article, I desire to make a brief personal statement.
It is true that a company of which I am a director has increased its interim dividend for the current year from 4 per cent. to 5 per cent. It has done this because the chairman had announced, at the annual general meeting on 4th July last—that is to say, before the Chancellor's statement was made—that from an examination of the first quarter's accounts he was confident that the company would be able to increase its interim and final dividends.
In my view and that of my co-directors, this announcement—which was widely publicised—made it imperative that the dividend should be increased if the company was not to break faith with its shareholders and particularly with those who have bought shares in it.

Hon. Members
Oh.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. It would be a great departure from our traditions if we did not allow an hon. Member making a personal explanation to be heard.

§ Mr. Lipton
On a point of order. Some of us are beginning to wonder what this has to do with the House of Commons, Mr. Speaker. If every time somebody's business is mentioned the hon. Member concerned is to give a long account of his business interests, we shall never get any "forrarder".

§ Mr. Speaker
If the hon. Member will look at the relevant passage in HANSARD for yesterday—I think that it is in column 990, but I do not wish to tie myself to the figure—I think that he will see why it necessarily has House of Commons relevance. I hope that we may now get on with this matter.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
I do hope that we can get on. The first thing I want to know 1145 is whether the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. ThorntonKernsley) has completed his personal statement.

§ Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley
I have very nearly finished, Sir. I was about to conclude by saying that it seemed essential to implement this statement if the company was not to break faith with its shareholders and with those who have bought shares on the basis of what amounted to a firm commitment.

Hon. Members
Oh.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I must request the House to keep a greater degree of silence.

§ Mr. Milne
rose—

Hon. Members
Sit down.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If I cannot hear what is being said I cannot ensure—and such is my duty—that the script submitted to me is being adhered to. Therefore, I want the assistance of the House in the matter. I now want to know whether the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) is rising to a point of order.

§ Mr. Milne
Yes, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that personal statements of this description are likely to become more numerous in the months that lie ahead, can we save Parliamentary time by asking the Government to issue a White Paper on the matter?

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not think that is a point of order. Mr. Stevens.

§ Mr. Stevens
rose—

Hon. Members
Oh.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I must be allowed to hear.

§ Mr. Ronald Bell
On a point of order. Has it not been for a very long time the custom of the House that personal statements are listened to without any interruption whatever?

§ Mr. Speaker
Yes, I have already indicated that fact.

§ Mr. S. Silverman
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Has it not been the invariable custom that an hon. Member is allowed to make a personal statement when he wishes to deny or explain a 1146 charge that has been made against him? Having listened to the two statements which have been made so far, so far from being a denial they are a repetition and a confirmation of the original charge. How can they become personal statements?

§ Mr. Speaker
We cannot argue these matters now. I have explained that, if the House thinks that I am wrong in this matter, the responsibility is mine: but we cannot debate it now.

§ Mr. Stevens
rose—

§ Mr. Thorpe
Further to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne). As we are likely to have a plethora—

§ Mr. Speaker
There was no point of order.

§ Mr. Thorpe
On a point of order. Would it not be possible, Mr. Speaker, to set aside a time for public confessions of this sort?

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order.

§ Mr. Stevens
Mr. Speaker, I, too, seek to make a personal statement. My name, also, was included in the "roll of dishonour" read out by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) as having connived at increased dividends. No company of which I am a director has declared any kind of increased dividend whatsoever in the last twelve months.

Hon. Members
Withdraw.

§ Mr. Callaghan
On a point of order. May I be permitted, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw any charge that I have made improperly against the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Stevens)? I was relying on what I hoped was accurate information. I should most certainly not wish anything to be imputed against his company which is incorrect. As we have so far only heard from three hon. Gentlemen, may I ask if you are to be requested to give permission to the remaining eight to make personal statements?

§ Mr. Speaker
The Chair has no control over personal statements, except to see if, when they are submitted to the Chair, they are, in the Chair's view, 1147 proper to be allowed. I have not the slightest idea whether anybody else wants to make one.

§ Mr. Gaitskell
Further to that point of order. In view of the possibility that tomorrow we may have another series of personal statements, with further interference with the debate on foreign affairs, could the Leader of the House arrange for any of his hon. Friends—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Sir R. Grimston
On a point of order. May we be informed whether any warning was given of this, because the time-honoured custom of the House is that if hon. Members are to be attacked in debate they are warned beforehand so that they may be present?

§ Mr. Speaker
No point of order arises, nor is it our practice to debate statements in personal explanation.