§ 28. Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Works when he hopes to start work on the provision of extra accommodation for hon. Members and their secretaries under the roof of the Palace of Westminster.
§ Lord John HopeI cannot forecast the date, but it will be as soon as circumstances permit.
§ Mrs. CastleBut is the Minister aware that this delay is quite intolerable? Is he aware that this extra accommodation is urgently needed to relieve the overcrowded and unsatisfactory conditions 1125 in which Members of this House, their secretaries, and officials of the House are having to work? Is it not bad enough for hon. Members to have to endure a pay pause without having an efficiency pause imposed on them as well?
§ Lord John HopeI should like to say two things in answer to that. First, that I believe that the House as a whole would not prefer that we put improvements For ourselves first, although naturally, as I agreed, we want this to be done when it is time to do it. Secondly, the more the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends help outside this House, the quicker we may be able to to do this. I hope that the hon. Lady will not go on making speeches encouraging people to break up the efforts to get this country's economy going properly.
§ Mr. C. Pannellrose—
§ Mr. S. Silvermanrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Charles Pannell.
§ Mr. C. PannellOn a point of order.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanOn a point of order. Mr. Speaker
§ Mr. SpeakerI called Mr. Charles Pannell.
§ Mr. C. PannellBefore I put my supplementary question, may I put a point of order to you, Mr. Speaker? Bearing in mind the rebuke you gave my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell) for introducing the sort of matter which he did into a supplementary question, may I with respect ask you whether the same treatment might be handed out to the Minister for his completely unmerited rebuke to my hon. Friend?
§ Mr. SpeakerTo be completely frank with the House and the hon. Member, I did not hear what the Minister said at that point, so I cannot help myself.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanFurther to that point of order. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that you were not able to hear the remarks which the Minister shouted at the top of his voice. What they amounted to, in the hearing of most of us, was a really savage attack on my hon. Friend for her policies and alleged actions in the country, to which, by the nature of the proceedings now before the House, 1126 she could not possibly have any opportunity whatever to reply, or from which she could not possibly defend herself at Question Time. I submit to you that that is a grave abuse of the Minister's position, and that he ought to withdraw and apologise.
§ Lord John HopeI have nothing to withdraw. I was referring—
§ Mr. S. SilvermanIt does not matter to what the noble Lord was referring.
§ Lord John HopeI was referring to the speeches the hon. Lady made last month when she urged the Trades Union Congress—
§ Mr. S. SilvermanOn a point of order.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Various things were happening. One of them was that I was trying to find out what it was the Minister had said out of which this arose. At that point the Minister rose to do something: I do not know what. I do not know whether he rose to a point of order. If he did not, the present position is that a point of order has been addressed to me by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I do not think that there is any breach of order. I do not think that I can say anything else now.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanFurther to that point of order. Is it not quite clear from what the Minister has just done that, whether he was in order or not before, he is clearly out of order now by his own confession? What he had in mind, and what he is now saying, has no relevance to the Question asked by my hon. Friend, and he is merely using the opportunity created by this point of order to repeat and aggravate his offence. I think that he ought to be called upon, and I respectfully suggest that he should be, to withdraw it, apologise, and undertake not to repeat it.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right form of the rule is that the answer must relate to the problem put in the Question. In so far as the Minister went outside that, he should in fact withdraw it in relation to Question Time. I gather that what he was saying was something in relation to the hon. Lady's treatment of Government policies in the country, or something of that sort.
§ Lord John HopeMr. Speaker, if you instruct me to do so, I withdraw unreservedly. I shall certainly do so. What I should like to explain—and what I have not been able to do up to now—is that the hon. Lady—and she has not asked me to withdraw—was criticising Her Majesty's Government for not getting on with the—
§ Mr. S. SilvermanOn a point of order.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. It is clearly right that I should hear what the Minister is try to tell me.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanOn a point of order. Is it not perfectly and absolutely clear to us that what the Minister has now commenced to do is to repeat his offence for a third time?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is not clear to me what the Minister is doing at the moment. I am trying to hear what he is explaining to me.
§ Lord John HopeAs I was endeavouring to say, the hon. Lady criticised Her Majesty's Government for not continuing this scheme, and implied that their policy was to blame. I simply said that I hoped the hon. Lady would do what should could to help, and not encourage those outside to do what she was purported to have said in a speech when she urged the Trades Union Congress to go in—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanGet back to the gutter.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. In going beyond the subject matter of the Question, the Minister was at fault in answering a question, and I am obliged to him for saying that he will withdraw that part of what he said.
§ Lord John HopeIn view of what you say, Mr. Speaker, of course I do so unreservedly.
§ Mr. NabarroOn a point of order. I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) address a highly approbrious remark to my noble Friend. It was distinctly heard by all my hon. Friends.
§ Mr. LiptonWhat was it?
§ Mr. NabarroI will tell the hon. Gentleman what it was. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne told my noble Friend to get back to the gutter. Would it be in order for him to be requested to withdraw such a disgraceful remark?
§ Mr. SpeakerI hope that all hon. Members will make use only of language proper in this House, and I invite the hon. Member, if he used that expression, to withdraw it.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanI am very glad to withdraw the invitation if the Minister does not like it.