HC Deb 13 December 1961 vol 651 cc430-3
20. Mr. Paget

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty why he has refused to make an increase of £1 per week awarded by the Industrial Court to 2,364 Admiralty employees.

Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing

The increase of £1 a week which the Industrial Court published on 15th September has been accepted.

In accordance with the declared Government policy the payment of this award must be deferred during the period of the wage pause. During the wage pause an increase of 8s. a week, which had previously been offered, has been paid. This wage increase is back-dated to 1st October, 1960—a date five months earlier than the date proposed by the Industrial Court.

Mr. Paget

That is a very disappointing Answer. Can the Minister tell us how these men differ from those in the fire services and why what is good enough for the fire services does not apply to them? Is he aware that in terms of common honesty and dealing with one's obligation to employees, we had expected rather better of the Admiralty?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

I cannot answer for the fire services, but I should like to direct the hon. and learned Member's attention to the statement made on 23rd October by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when the said: What the Government have done is to reserve to themselves the decision as to the date when any increases agreed or awarded should be put into effect."—[OFFICAL REPORT, 23rd October, 1961; Vol. 646, c. 623.] That is what we have done

Mr. Wingfield Digby

Can my hon. Friend say whether there have been any other recent increases for this group of employees?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

In October, 1960, there was an increase of 5s. a week; in April, 1961, an increase of 3s. a week; and then there is this last increase of 8s. a week back-dated to October, 1960.

Mr. Awbery

Is the Minister aware that on Monday this week, I was told from the Government Front Bench that the responsibility for wage negotiations was between the employers and the workers' representatives? How is it that Government Departments now interfere with the decisions of workmen and employers when they come to a decision, as they have done in the Industrial Court?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

That is why, in my first supplementary answer, I quoted the fact that we have accepted the award and have only taken powers to delay its implementation.[Interruption.] It is not a laughing matter. The economic and future trading position of the nation depends upon these issues. Therefore, they are extremely important. We have only taken power to delay the implementation of the award until the wage pause ceases, when the employees will get these increases.

Mr. Callaghan

Is the Minister saying that at the end of the pay pause, he will be willing to pay this increase from the date of the arbitration award, which has been the normal practice for 40 years? If he is not saying that, are we to take it that after a decade of Conservative government our economy is is such a state that we cannot afford to pay an increase like this and that we are ready to wreck arbitration agreements of 40 years' standing and a procedure that has stood the test of time? Is that what the hon. Gentleman is telling us?

Mr. Orr-Ewing

No, Sir.

Mr. Callaghan

I asked a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

I do not know quite what is happening. Is the hon. Gentleman raising a point of order?

Mr. Callaghan

No, Mr. Speaker, I am not raising a point of order.

Mr. Speaker

I think there will be an opportunity to discuss these things on Monday as far as I can judge the business.

Mr. Callaghan

Very well, Mr. Speaker, may I raise a point of order? I was not intending to do so, but I should now like to raise one. I put—[Interruption.]—and I appeal to you for your protection, Mr. Speaker—a perfectly fair question to the Minister about whether he proposed to pay the increase to the men from the date on which the arbitration award was given. The reply which I got from the Minister was put into his mouth by a former Civil Lord of thirty years ago. There is more feeling in the Civil Service and among industrial employees about these matters than I have ever known. We are entitled to have fair replies from the Minister on these important questions.

Mr. Speaker

I am afraid I do not discover the point of order.