HC Deb 05 December 1961 vol 650 cc1138-42
Q8. Mr. Warbey

asked the Prime Minister whether, in his forthcoming discussions with Dr. Adenauer, he will propose that, in the forthcoming negotiations with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the question of future security arrangements in Central Europe shall be discussed as well as the Berlin situation.

Q9. Mr. Emrys Hughes

asked the Prime Minister to what extent, in his forthcoming meeting with Dr. Adenauer, he proposes to convey to the German Chancellor the concern in Great Britain about the growth of the German armed forces and the proposals made in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation to arm Germany with nuclear weapons.

Q10. Mr. M. Foot

asked the Prime Minister whether, in forthcoming discussions with Dr. Adenauer, he will express clear British opposition to any proposals made in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for the establishment of a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation nuclear deterrent and the supply of nuclear weapons to West Germany.

The Prime Minister

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on 28th November.

Mr. Warbey

Yes, but can the Prime Minister say whether the Government accept the policy impressed on them by Dr. Adenauer and the N.A.T.O. military chiefs that it is better to keep Berlin and Germany divided with all the fateful consequences of such a policy rather than to accept any form of arms control or disengagement in Central Europe?

The Prime Minister

As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementry question, I cannot accept his statement and, therefore, I would not discuss the value of the policy which he alleges has been accepted.

Mr. Hughes

Can the Prime Minister say if the supply of nuclear weapons to Germany is now the policy of Her Majesty's Government? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that concern is growing in the country about the increased military organisations and the military strength in Germany?

The Prime Minister

With regard to the second part of that supplementary question, German armaments are in accordance with policies agreed both under the Brussels Treaty and N.A.T.O. With regard to nuclear weapons, no nuclear warheads are under German control.

Mr. M. Foot

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that President Kennedy recently made a new declaration on this subject in his interview with Izvestia, that Dr Adenauer has made a report to his Parliament on the subject—a report which seems to contradict what has been said by President Kennedy—and does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is his duty to give to the British House of Commons as full a report on this matter as Dr. Adenauer has given to the German Parliament?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. In the present situation—I ask for some forbearance from the House—I think that the best contribution that our country can make is to play its rôle in these preliminary discussions and hope that they will lead to fruitful negotiations.

Mr. Gaitskell

Reverting to Question No. Q8, has the Prime Minister abandoned for the, as we hope, forthcoming discussions on Berlin any idea that a zone of controlled disarmament should be introduced? Is not this one of the most fruitful ideas, and one which he discussed with Mr. Khrushchev some time ago? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is strong support for this idea in the country?

The Prime Minister

I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that, when I discussed that with Mr. Khrushchev and published it jointly with him, it was part of a larger peace plan as a whole.

Mr. Gaitskell

Nevertheless, is it not a fact that in the communiqué to which, no doubt, the right hon. Gentleman was referring, it was stated that both he and Mr. Khrushchev agreed that the plan was well worth further study, and we have always been trying to find out when that further study was to be given to it?

The Prime Minister

The point was that it was to be part of a larger settlement. I am asked now whether I will state what proposals we shall put forward. I ask again for the forbearance of the House. The first thing to do is to try to get through the immediate Berlin problem and crisis. To do that we want to reach a joint Western position. We must then enter into negotiations. The negotiations may be difficult and prolonged, or they may be much easier than we think. We may be able to widen them into something more fruitful or we may have to rest content in the first stages with a narrower agreement. What we want to do is to remove the sense of crisis and try to get at least the beginning of some settlement. I honestly ask the House to allow the Government to play their rôle as best they think in trying to arrive at this result.

Mr. H. Wilson

I think we all understand the Prime Minister's request for forbearance, but is he aware that, although we all welcome what he has just said about the factual situation in relation to nuclear arms for Germany, namely, that they do not have them, is he aware that we should all welcome from him a clear statement—which would not in any way tie his hands—that Her Majesty's Government will oppose any change in that situation and will insist that nuclear arms be not given to Germany?

The Prime Minister

Her Majesty's Government can play their part so far as they have power under the Brussels Treaty, under which, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, the Germans are precluded from the manufacture of nuclear arms. That, therefore, is within the power of Her Majesty's Government as signatory to the Treaty. On other questions, it is a matter not of power but of influence.

Mr. S. Silverman

Does not the Prime Minister realise that, although we all understand the limits affecting one ally in consultation with other allies, what the House would like is an expression of the Prime Minister's own opinion on this matter? In view of his reference to the agreements under which German armaments were allowed and to the fact that under those agreements nuclear weapons were not permitted, could not the right hon. Gentleman give one word of reassurance to the House that Her Majesty's Government are at this moment opposed to any alteration of those agreements which would result in the German forces having control of nuclear weapons?

The Prime Minister

This is where there has been so much misunderstanding and mis-statement in the country. The Germans do not have control of the nuclear war heads. There has been great pressure that their forces should be less well armed than those of their allies. That I believe to be impossible in any military formation; they must have the same armaments as the formations working by their side. Control of the warheads which are given to them by the American Government lies in the hands of the American Government alone.

Mr. Grimond

But will the Prime Minister at least agree that any building up of nuclear arms in Germany which led to the impression that forces in Germany were becoming more and more dependent on nuclear arms rather than conventional arms would create the worst possible atmosphere for starting the sort of negotiations of which he has spoken?

The Prime Minister

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman realises what are the actual formation and military arrangements by which the tactical nuclear weapons are held. So far as the N.A.T.O. authorities wish them and have agreed that they should be held, there is no distinction made between the various allied countries in N.A.T.O. What remains is the control of their use, which, in the case of these weapons where the warhead is nuclear, lies with the American Government.