HC Deb 17 April 1961 vol 638 cc757-63
1. Mr. Hector Hughes

asked the Minister of Labour what statistics are kept by Her Majesty's Government of youths in technical training in Scotland; and what steps are taken to publicise this information.

The Minister of Labour (Mr. John Hare)

Statistics kept by my Department show the numbers of youths who enter employment as apprentices or learners in skilled occupations. These figures are published annually in the Ministry of Labour Gazette.

Statistics kept by the Scottish Education Department show the numbers of students enrolled for full-time and part-time courses in central institutions and establishments of further education. These are published in the annual reports of the Secretary of State on Education in Scotland. The decennial census of the population gives statistics of the numbers of apprentices analysed by age, occupation, industry and area. These have been published by the Registrar General for Scotland for the 1951 census; and similar figures will be published after the 1961 census.

Mr. Hughes

While thanking the Minister for that comprehensive reply, may I ask if he realises that my purpose in putting the Question was to emphasise the importance of enabling youths, particularly school leavers, to plan their careers ahead so that they can fit into national productivity and exports with advantage to themselves and to the nation?

Mr. Hare

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member and entirely agree with everything he has said.

14. Mr. Willis

asked the Minister of Labour how many Scottish employers have informed him of their intention to increase their training programmes so as to provide extra apprenticeships and other forms of training during the years 1961 to 1963; and what proportion this represents of the employers approached by the Industrial Training Council in this connection.

Mr. Hare

The detailed information for which the hon. Member asks is not available. But the hon. Member will be glad to hear that many firms are announcing their intention to increase their intake of apprentices.

Mr. Willis

Is it not rather regrettable that the right hon. Gentleman has not got this information? How does he expect to deal with this problem, which is exceedingly serious, if he has not got any information about it?

Mr. Hare

I honestly do not think that even the hon. Gentleman would say that there is much point in keeping statistics about intentions. I am much more interested in statistics about facts.

Mr. Willis

The Minister has not got those either.

Mr. Hare

Therefore, I do not think that statistics of the sort the hon. Gentleman asks for would be useful. However, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and myself in going round the country have found that immense interest is being taken in this, and I am convinced that satisfactory action will follow.

Mr. Prentice

Did not the Industrial Training Council last year circulate large firms throughout the United Kingdom? Why cannot the Scottish aspect of this problem be extracted from the replies the Council received so that my hon. Friend can have an answer?

Mr. Hare

The trouble about that is that it was a very incomplete exercise because many people at that time were not prepared to say what their intentions were.

21. Mr. Malcolm MacPherson

asked the Minister of Labour how many training development officers are working in Scotland under the auspices of the Industrial Training Council.

Mr. Hare

The Industrial Training Council's Training Advisory Service has been and will continue to be generally available to assist industries and individual firms in Scotland. In addition, from 1st May, the Council has appointed a training development officer based on Glasgow, who will work in Scotland.

Mr. Malcolm MacPherson

Does the Minister consider that to be satisfactory—one officer only for Scotland as Scotland, plus the functioning Service as a whole? Does he not realise that these officers were intended to be especially concerned with the co-ordination of training in small firms, and is not Scotland especially backward in that regard? Will not he, therefore, try to do rather more?

Mr. Hare

It is important to realise that the general effort being made by the Industrial Training Council also includes a particular effort in Scotland. This extra officer is being trained to work in Scotland alone, and his efforts will supplement those already being made.

24. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Labour what is the estimated expenditure for the financial year 1961–62 by the Industrial Training Council for their work in connection with the expansion of industrial training in Scotland.

Mr. Hare

The work of the Industrial Training Council extends throughout Great Britain, and it is not possible to give separate information about Scotland.

Mr. Ross

But the Minister will surely remember his Answer to Question No. 21, asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson). The right hon. Gentleman then said that a special effort was being made in Scotland, and told us about the appointment of one additional training development officer. Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman cannot explain what is to happen there? Is he aware that for this purpose a predecessor of his arranged for a special grant of £75,000 to be spent over five years, that 40 per cent. of that time has gone and only 20 per cent. of the money has been spent, and that, as far as I can make out from the figures, the rate of expenditure in Scotland for this important job has been less than £1,000 a year?

Mr. Hare

As I told the hon. Gentleman, it is impossible to give separate figures for Scotland, but expenditure on this administrative side is, in fact, increasing.

25. Mr. Millan

asked the Minister of Labour what plans he has for providing courses of first year apprenticeship training at Government training centres in Scotland in trades other than engineering.

Mr. Hare

My officers are negotiating with the industry about a course in radio and television servicing at the Hillington Government Training Centre and I am hopeful that a class will be set up. In addition, consultations covering Great Britain are taking place with the heating and ventilating and electrical contracting industries.

Mr. Millan

Even so, is this not rather disappointing progress? Can the Minister say whether this arises from lack of interest among Scottish employers or from lack of initiative on the part of the Minister? Has he any other proposals in mind for the near future?

Mr. Hare

These are the proposals. In addition, as the hon. Gentleman knows, two new classes in engineering will be started this year.

27. Mr. Lawson

asked the Minister of Labour, what steps are being taken in Scotland by the Industrial Training Council to promote group apprenticeship schemes among small and medium-sized firms.

Mr. Hare

The Industrial Training Council seeks to promote the expansion of all types of industrial training and will suggest the adoption of a group apprenticeship scheme where this is the appropriate course.

Mr. Lawson

Are we to understand from the Minister that this one officer who has been appointed in Scotland has been engaged in this job or is now engaged in it, and can he say what success he has had with this group of employers? Will he bear in mind that this group of small and medium-sized employers are among the employers who are failing the Scottish nation? What drastic step does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to remedy this defect?

Mr. Hare

The officer will not be appointed till 1st May. On the other hand, the work of the Industrial Training Council has been going on solidly and it is recommending to industries the particular courses in which it considers training is most appropriate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is an important place for the small employer in these group apprenticeship training schemes. There is also the benefit, if they choose to use them, of training schemes such as we run at our own G.T.C.s, as well as the facilities which the Ministry of Education is making available. Using one of these three avenues of approach should solve the problem.

Mr. Lee

Would the Minister not agree that so far the Industrial Training Council has been singularly unsuccessful in getting group apprenticeship schemes started? Does he recall that four were begun in 1960? Will he say now whether such huge organisations as the Engineering Employers' Federation has withdrawn its opposition to this scheme and is now co-operating in it?

Mr. Hare

There is no doubt that we are all disappointed at the slowness of the start. On the other hand, there are signs that far greater interest is now being shown. One thing I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that in my trips to the regions, I have been impressed by the fact that everywhere more interest is being aroused, and I hope action will follow.

28. Mr. Small

asked the Minister of Labour how many courses for engineering apprentices will be available at Government training centres in Scotland during 1961–62.

Mr. Hare

The present course at the Hillington Government Training Centre will be followed by two further courses in the autumn.

Mr. Small

Is the Minister aware that the number of apprentices attending these courses is surprisingly low and that six months ago they numbered eleven? Can he say whether the variety of courses and the status of this training for higher skills are adequate to attract the apprentices who are looking for skill of a higher kind?

Mr. Hare

The hon. Gentleman must remember what is the object of the courses. It is a limited one—to provide small and medium-sized firms with a demonstration of the benefits of systematic training.

Mr. Prentice

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be 45,000 extra school leavers in Scotland during the next three years? Against that background does he not think that this reply and the replies to the previous Questions on this subject are hopelessly inadequate? Should there not be Government effort on a much bigger scale and quicker action because the extra school leavers start leaving at the end of the summer?

Mr. Hare

The hon. Gentleman must be careful in what he says. The trade unions and the employers have agreed that this is a responsibility which is theirs and which they are going to undertake. To denigrate their efforts in the middle of all this is a great mistake. I cannot guarantee what the results will be, but from what I have heard I think the results will be much better than some Members opposite appear to think.

Mr. Ross

Surely the Minister will appreciate that the grant-in-aid which is made available in respect of training development officers was conditional upon employers and industry contributing the same amount and that there has been a very unsatisfactory response?

Mr. Hare

The hon. Gentleman should realise that a number of employers and employing organisations have done this on their own.