HC Deb 11 May 1960 vol 623 cc416-21
49. Mrs. Castle

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultations Her Majesty's Government's representative at the Geneva talks on the testing of nuclear weapons had with the representative of the United States Government before that Government announced their decision to carry out an independent series of underground nuclear tests; and, in view of the damage this decision has inflicted on the prospects of agreement being reached at Geneva, what representations were made by Her Majesty's Government in opposition to the proposed tests.

46. Mr. A. Henderson

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government at the Geneva Conference on Nuclear Tests that all tests carried out for the purpose of establishing that small underground tests can be controlled are to be jointly organised and carried out by the three Governments.

Mr. Ormsby Gore

The declaration issued by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and President Eisenhower after their meeting at Camp David in March called for an agreed programme of coordinated scientific research to solve the problems of detecting small underground nuclear tests. Scientists from the three countries taking part in the Nuclear Tests Conference are joining the delegations now in Geneva today to assist in working out details of this programme. The Soviet Union have accepted that a limited number of nuclear explosions can form part of this programme, but the procedure for conducting these will have to be agreed when the scientists meet.

On 7th May the United States made an announcement indicating the scope of their contribution to such a research programme, and I will arrange for the full text to appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

We were already aware of the United States' proposals and their nature has been explained to the Soviet delegation at the Geneva Conference. I do not accept that this decision could cause damage to the prospects of agreement as suggested by the hon. Lady.

Mrs. Castle

Is it not a fact that what the Soviet Union and the other Powers had agreed to were joint tests for this purpose? That being so, is it not to say the least very extraordinary that the United States Government should have made this unilateral announcement before there had been these further consultations among the Powers as to the exact form these joint tests should take? Is not this likely to arouse suspicions and alarm on the Soviet side and damage the prospects of agreed disarmament?

Mr. Ormsby Gore

No. If one is going to announce what contribution one intends to make to a programme of research of this kind, it is very difficult to do it except unilaterally. This is what the United States contribution is to be, and I have explained that the actual procedure by which the United States carry out these tests has to be agreed with the scientists of the other two countries in Geneva.

Mr. Healey

Is not the Minister, no doubt unwittingly, misleading the House? Surely, the agreement at Geneva was that any tests carried out in connection with this joint programme of research should be tests carried out in common by the three Governments concerned. Can the Minister assure the House that the American Government do not propose to carry out tests independently, and without the presence and participation of the representatives of the British and Soviet Governments?

Mr. Ormsby Gore

These are precisely the matters that the scientists are meeting at Geneva to work out. All I can tell the House is that the President of the United States set out the policy of the United States Administration when he said there was to be an agreed programme of co-ordinated scientific research—an agreed programme. That appears in the declaration issued after the Camp David talks, and as far as we know the American Administration will abide by that declaration.

Mr. Gaitskell

Can the right hon. Gentleman be a little more explicit on what is a vitally important point? Is it Her Majesty's Government's opinion that these tests that were announced, suddenly and surprisingly, by the American Government are tests in which Her Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government will participate? If that is not the case, how are they to be reconciled with the moratorium which, in principle, has been agreed by all three Governments?

Mr. Ormsby Gore

What I would certainly say is that the procedure under which these tests are carried out must be such as to give assurance to the other countries concerned that no military advantage can accrue to the United States Government by the carrying out of the tests.

Mr. Gaitskell

That is a totally different matter. Is it not the case that under the moratorium proposals the only tests to be carried out would be underground tests for the purpose of discovering better methods of detection, and tests in which all three Governments participated? Would the Minister of State confirm that that is, in effect, the intention of the Camp David announcement? Would he also indicate clearly whether the moratorium applies to all tests, or only to tests carried out for military purposes?

Mr. Ormsby Gore

Again, the precise details of the moratorium are the subject of the negotiations now going on in Geneva. All the policy that has been laid down is that contained in the announcement made after the Camp David talks. The precise arrangement under which one assures the other countries concerned that in the explosion of an underground nuclear test one is not gaining any military advantage is a subject that really only scientists can settle. It is an extremely complicated problem. That is why the scientists are meeting in Geneva today—to discuss this very procedure.

Mr. Healey

Is it not appallingly clear that the right hon. Gentleman has not the slightest idea of what the President meant when he made this announcement? Is it not a most unacceptable situation that the United States should unilaterally take a decision that affects a declaration of principle made with Britain and the Soviet Union without previously consulting the British Government and explaining what it means?

Mr. Ormsby Gore

No, I think that I can understand what the President meant when he made his declaration just as well as can the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey).

Mrs. Castle

Have not the United States Government anticipated the dis- cussions that ought to have settled this matter and, by so anticipating them, have damaged the very hopeful prospects of a nuclear test agreement? In view of that, will not Her Majesty's Government indicate to the United States Government that we totally deplore this kind of unilateral action and do not think it at all furthers the cause of disarmament?

Mr. Ormsby Gore

No unilateral action has taken place. The United States Government have announced what their contribution to a co-ordinated programme of research would be. That is what they have announced. It has been explained to the Soviet delegation in Geneva, whose members, I am bound to say, did not have the same reaction to it as has the hon. Lady.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot debate this in Question and Answer.

Following is the announcement:

WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT OF MAY 7, 1960

The President today announced approval of a major expansion of the present research and development directed toward an improved capability to detect and identify underground nuclear explosions. The present United States programme has evolved from the recommendations set forth by the panel of seismic improvement ("Berkner panel"). For fiscal year 60, it has been funded for approximately dollars 10,000,000. During fiscal year 61, it is anticipated that the funds required will be about dollars 66 million for all aspects of the seismic research and development programme.

Known as project Vela, the programme calls for increased basic research, in seismology, procurement of instruments for a world-wide seismic research programme, development of improved seismic instruments, construction and operation of prototype seismic detection stations, and an experimental programme of underground detonations encompassing both high explosive and where necessary nuclear explosions. The planned programme provides for investigation of all aspects of improvement that are considered to be feasible.

Such nuclear explosions as are essential to a full understanding of both the capabilities of the presently proposed detection system and the potential for improvements in this system would be carried out under fully contained conditions and would produce no radioactive fall-out. In order to develop sufficient reliable data from the programme, it is anticipated that it will be necessary to conduct a series of explosions of various sizes, in different types of geological formations.

Recently, the Soviet negotiators at Geneva concurred with the proposal that underground nuclear explosions should be conducted to improve the capability of the proposed control network to detect and identify underground explosions.

They have also indicated a willingness to discuss research and development in the seismic detection area with the United States and the United Kingdom. Agreement has been reached to convene a group of U.S.S.R., United Kingdom and United States scientists in Geneva on May 11 to exchange information on the seismic research activities of the three nations as a basis for future determination of the areas in which co-ordinated or joint research would be most fruitful.

Government agencies including the Department of Defence, the Atomic Energy Commission, the Department of Commerce and the Department of Interior, as well as universities and private organisations, will participate in carrying out the United States programme of research and development related to the detection and identification of nuclear detonations.