Second Schedule.—(RULES FOR LICENSED BETTING OFFICES.) (Hansard, 10 May 1960)

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move, in page 34, line 35, to leave out from "transactions" to end of line 36.
Since the Committee stage, the definition of a betting transaction has been inserted into the Bill. The words or the paying out of winnings on bets become redundant in the Schedule. This Amendment deletes them.

§ Mr. Fletcher
I beg to move, in page 34, line 36, at the end to insert: No licensed premises shall be open to the public after 6 30 p.m.".

§ Mr. Speaker
I believe that it would be for the convenience of the House also to discuss the Amendments in page 34, line 36, at end insert: Provided that on any day on which licensed premises are lawfully open they shall not be required to close before seven thirty o'clock in the evening. and in page 34, line 36, at end insert: 2. No licensed premises shall be open for public business after 6.30 p.m.

§ Mr. Fletcher
That will be convenient. I hope that it will be possible to deal with this quite briefly. We had a considerable discussion in Committee about the hours during which licensed premises should be open. As the right hon. Gentleman will remember, in its original form the Second Schedule contained a number of rules with regard to licensed betting offices. Most of those rules were eliminated during our discussion in Committee, and there are now very few rules left.
Some of my hon. Friends and I thought it desirable, in the interests of public order generally, that there should be some limitations on the hours at which betting offices are to be open. Various views were expressed, and in the form in which the Bill finally left the Committee it was arranged that those hours should be prescribed by Statutory Instruments to be made by the Government. If I recollect correctly, some assurance—although I am not sure that it was a definite one—was given that it was the Government's intention that betting offices should close at 6.30 p.m.
Other suggestions were canvassed in Committee. One was that betting offices should be closed during racing hours, but there were considerable objections to that. Another suggestion was that there shall be no restriction at all on betting premises remaining open, but I think that the general consensus of opinion was that there should be some limitation on the hours of opening.
If the Government are still minded to prescribe 6.30 as the closing hour, the effect of the Amendment would be to write that definitely into the Bill, and I think that that would be regarded by a great many of us as being more satisfactory than leaving it to regulation.

§ Mr. Wigg
This is another of the Amendments put down by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) in which his kindly heart has led him astray. He overlooks the fact that at certain seasons of the year, and particularly at this time of the year and onwards, there is evening racing. Therefore, by his system, any betting transaction on racing that takes place at night would be precluded from the operations that are undertaken through the betting shops. As a consequence of being with 321 my hon. Friend on the Standing Committee, I know that he is a loftier and more noble person than I, so I would know that people do go to race meetings after 6.30 at night, but he would not. I think that that is the explanation of the oversight.
It will, of course, be completely unknown to my hon. Friend, but people who back horses do occasionally win. Many of those who win work until 6 o'clock. They then have to journey from work to where the betting shop happens to be. It may even be that if the win is large enough they may be more concerned about collecting the cash than staying at work, but, in any case, it is not right that they should be deprived of their winnings for a moment longer than necessary.
I suggest, therefore, that my hon. Friend attends Alexandra Park next time there is an evening meeting so that he may know what goes on very near his own constituency, and that he should, in the meantime, withdraw the Amendment and leave it to the Government to frame their Statutory Instrument in accordance with the existing practices of the British people, both in terms of attendance at race meetings in the evening and the collection of winnings. Personally, I hope that the vast majority of my constituents who may attend in the evenings will do so not only to bet but to collect.

§ Sir J. Duncan
I do not want to repeat what I said in Committee, but I most strongly support the idea of a definite national closing time. I am afraid that if it is left to the local licensing justices, or if regulations are framed in such a way that there may be different closing times in different parts of the country, we shall get all the evils we now have with the present licensing laws where the closing hours vary in different areas. That is why I am so anxious to have a definite national closing time.
In Committee, I had an opening time in mind, but I have left that out in the Amendment I am now discussing. There is a great deal to be said for betting shops closing at 6.30. I know that there is evening racing just as well as the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) knows it. There is no earthly reason why people in the vicinity should not go and put their bets on on the course. Others can do it either in the lunch hour or on their 322 way home. If we have a definite closing hour, it will definitely have the effect of stopping what is going on in certain parts of the country—

§ Mr. Wigg
In Scotland.

§ Sir J. Duncan
—extending to greyhound racing. It is the almost unanimous view of the bookmakers that they do not want to be mixed up with greyhound racing in cash betting offices.

§ Mr. Wigg
Is not this another example of the way that pernicious habits in Scotland are fastened like a straitjacket on to our law-abiding English ways? If there is flagrant disregard of the law in Scotland, then let us deal with Scotland, or break the Union and separate Scotland from England.

§ Sir J. Duncan
Flagrant disregard of the law is one of the reasons for the Bill. In reply to the hon. Member for Dudley, it was earlier today denied completely that the police are in any way corrupt, just as my hon. Friend the Joint Undersecretary of State has denied it. I hope that the hon. Member for Dudley will forget that sort of reference. The police in Scotland are doing their best in face of a law which is totally unenforceable. From time to time, they make raids and arrest and bring before the courts betting office keepers, just as they do in England in respect of street bookmaking.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept either my Amendment or the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Islington, East. I believe that it would be a very great mistake—I do not think that any reputable bookmaker today wants it—to extend these arrangements to greyhound racing. I am anxious that what we suggest should be put in the Bill, but I hope that my right hon. Friend, if he cannot do that, will at least make quite clear to everyone concerned that there will be a 6.30 closing hour and it will not be altered.

§ Mr. McAdden
My Amendment, which is being considered at the same time, provides that the closing hour should be 7.30, not 6.30. This shows that there is a difference of opinion in the House about the time at which betting shops should close. It is important, therefore, for hon. Members on both sides to remember that we are moving into a new experience in cash betting 323 operations. It is surely wise not to write into the Bill any particular time because it may be that, in the light of experience, the time will have to be varied, making it either later or earlier, according to the pattern of social habits.
We do not want to have another Betting Bill in twelve months in order to make a change. I should be only too happy to accede to the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). If the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) withdraws his Amendment and I withdraw mine, we shall be able to got on with our business and not hear any more Committee stage speeches.

§ Mr. Rees-Davies
I was very attracted by the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) when he dealt with the advisability of not putting any particular time in the Bill. I am bound to say, however, that I agree in toto with the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan). I have always agreed with him in this matter.
It is my clear recollection that, in Committee, it was decided that there would be no opening hour, so to speak, but the closing hour would be 6.30 in the evening. I hope that my right hon. Friend will say that that is the present view and that 6.30 will be the closing hour in any event, even if he deals with it by regulation. I think that on the whole it is so fundamental to the major part of Part I that it would be better if it were actually set out.
9.45 p.m.
Many bookmakers do not want to be open in the evening. They have a long day anyway. People who bet off the course in the evening by cash are able to do so by 6.30, just as in the same way all bets on afternoon racing are placed by 12 o'clock. I think that the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) is misled by his own enthusiasm. It is within my knowledge that he always uses the telephone, which is free here, fortunately for us when we are confined here considering such matters as the Finance Bill. The telephone is largely used for evening betting. The amount of betting on horse racing in the evening in summer is so negligible that I do not 324 think that it ought to be a matter for legislation.
None of the bookmakers concerned with greyhound racing wants it. Certainly those who operate on the tracks do not want it. While I am attracted by the possibility of the desirability of change in the future law, I should have thought that 6.30 is the proper hour and I hope that the Government think that that is quite late enough an hour. As soon as the country knows that that is the hour, I should have thought that the sooner the same hours apply throughout the country the better.

§ Miss Bacon
Throughout our discussions on the Bill it has been evident that the divisions on it have not always been party divisions. That has been shown in this Amendment, on which my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) is in agreement with the hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), and I, sitting with my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East on the Front Bench, am more in agreement with the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden). One thing on which all of us will agree with the hon. Member for Southend, East is that we do not want another Betting and Gaming Bill, since we had 25 sittings on this Bill in Committee. We on this side have had free votes throughout the Bill. I think it entirely wrong that the party opposite should have thought it right that the Whips should be imposed. We on this side are free to disagree and to show our disagreement in the Lobbies, if necessary.
There is a good deal of force in what my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said, namely, that, quite apart from evening racing, people like to pick up their winnings. We should not forget that in a large part of the country the whole system of betting will be altered. In parts where we have had street runners and street betting, people who have placed bets have been able to collect their winnings the same day.
I do not know whether the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) is right in saying that the bookmakers do not want this, but people will want to pick up their winnings. It would be good sense to leave this matter to regulation and not be tied down to any time in the Bill.

§ Mr. Vosper
I am surprised to hear the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) say that those who place bets with bookmakers collect their winnings the same day. That is not my experience. My experience is that normally they collect their winnings the following day. However, that is not necessarily relevant to the matter that we are discussing.
In Committee, we discussed the possibility of an opening time, of a closed period during the afternoon and the question of a closing hour. At the end of our discussions the Committee, I think, accepted my advice that the only thing that we should settle on was a closing hour and that we should see how we went in respect of any other periods of the day. I said on that occasion that the Government's intention was, to begin with, that the closing hour should be 6.30 p.m. I am advised that in Scotland there are some reservations about the closing hour. Perhaps I had better qualify my statement by saying that, with the possible exclusion of Scotland, it is the intention that 6.30 should be the closing hour.
It has been asked why this should not be written in the Bill. It would be the easiest thing in the world to do that, but I do not want to do it for the reason which my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) gave. If it were written in the Bill and if in a year's time it were proved wrong, it would be ten years before we could amend it. It has taken ten years to bring in this Bill. If we find that 6.30 is too early or that we have to take account of more evening racing, the time can be altered by regulation. We would also have the power to specify a closed period in the afternoon if we found that betting was becoming too prevalent. Therefore, I suggest that we leave the matter as it stands, so that the times will be prescribed. I give the undertaking, however, at least concerning England, that we shall start with a closing hour of 6.30 p.m.

§ Mr. Fletcher
I am relieved to have the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that the Government will adhere to their intention that for England the closing hour will be 6.30 and that it will be so prescribed in regulations. In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, 326 I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move in page 34, line 46, to leave out " and shall exhibit" and to insert: shall exhibit on those premises".

§ Mr. Speaker
It may be convenient also to discuss the next Amendment, in line 47, after "and", insert "shall".

§ Mr. Vosper
Yes, Mr. Speaker. These Amendments deal with small points. There is doubt about the exhibition of notices under paragraph 3 of the Schedule. It is intended, as the first line makes clear, that the notices shall be exhibited on the outside of premises. Line 46 does not make that clear. The Amendments, therefore, are intended to make it clear that the notices shall bo exhibited on the outside of premises.

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move, in page 34, line 49, at the end to insert: or of signs of any description on the licensed premises, on any other premises which give access between the licensed premises and a street, and at any place within the prescribed distance of any part of the licensed premises or of such other premises as aforesaid". The Amendment arises from the shortening of the Second Schedule which took place in Committee, as a result of which we have rather lost control of the signs which might be posted on the outside of betting offices. These words are intended to be added to the Schedule to make certain that no unauthorised sign is imposed either on the outside of betting offices, on premises in which they are situated or in corridors connecting the entrance to the betting office. The Amendment conforms with the original intention of the Bill and, I think, will generally meet the desire of the House.

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move, in page 35, line 3, to leave out from "for" to "shall" in line 4 and to insert:

(a) seeing any television broadcast; or

(b) hearing any sound broadcast which—

(i) is transmitted by wireless telegraphy within the meaning of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1949, and is intended to be received by the general public; or
327
(ii) comprises matter other than information relating to events in connection with which betting transactions may be or have been effected on the licensed premises.

This Amendment fulfils the result of a discussion in Committee about television, radio and what is commonly known as the "blower". I then argued that radio and television were not suitable for a betting office on the grounds that they were not necessary for the conduct of the business and were liable to attract to the betting office people who would not otherwise frequent the premises. On the other hand, the "blower", which is the means of getting hold of information from the racecourse, was, I felt, an essential tool of the trade and part of the equipment of the office if the business was to be carried on properly and if the punter was to be safeguarded.
Therefore, it was the desire of the Committee that we should introduce an Amendment excluding television and radio, which was always the intention of the Government and of the Royal Commission, but that we should provide for the use of the "blower". This complicated looking Amendment provides for that.

§ Mr. Fletcher
As the Joint Undersecretary is aware, it is becoming increasingly common for people to carry about with them portable radio sets, which are becoming smaller and more compact and, of course, cheaper in price. Am I to understand that it is the intention of paragraph (5) of the Second Schedule, as amended, to prohibit anyone who goes into a betting office from taking a portable radio set with him?

§ Mr. Rees-Davies
May I add to that point? I said in Committee that, speaking for myself, I was absolutely satisfied that the complete Clause is quite inoperable. I do not want to go into the arguments I made first on Second Reading, but it is perfectly plain that people who have cafes, restaurants and other things next door will in fact use them for both sound and television, and that none of the other measures contained in the Schedule will prevent that taking place.
It would have been far wiser to leave out the whole question of sound and 328 television from this paragraph. The wording used is no facilities for hearing or seeing any sound or television broadcast shall be provided … and neither the licensee nor any servant or agent of his shall cause or permit any such facilities to be provided … We shall not cause or permit it to be provided if someone wants to take in his own set to listen to it for the afternoon. There are dozens of ways by which the trade will get round this. I felt that this was one of the unenforceable aspects and that it might lead to unfair trading by one betting office trying to attract custom to the detriment of another office by providing these facilities, and I still feel that it would be far better to exclude the paragraph altogether. I nearly moved the Amendment to that effect in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) which has not been moved. I should like the Government to reconsider this matter generally. If, however, they are adamant about it, they had better look at it carefully again if they want to ensure that people cannot take in radio sets, walkie-talkies or any other of the new gadgets, because this will be impossible of enforcement.

§ Mr. Vosper
I should like to look at the point which has been raised. I thought that would be excluded. These are rules made under Clause 4 and I think that the manager or proprietor of the betting shop would probably be at fault if a portable radio or television was brought into the premises.
I must look at what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies), but I have no doubt that the Government are right, just as he believes that they are wrong. In Dublin, where they have had these offices for many years, what he has in mind concerning the provision of television in cafes next door has not happened. I believe in making these places attractive for betting without making them so attractive as to become the haunts of people who have no initial interest in betting, and I think that in this way we shall best serve the purpose of the Bill. Only time will prove whether my hon. Friend is right and I am wrong, but I believe that the provision now made is the right one.

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move, in page 35, line 8, at the end, to insert: and no music, dancing or other entertainment shall be provided or allowed, and no refreshment of any kind shall be served, on those premises. This Amendment is moved as a result of an undertaking which I gave after discussion of two Amendments discussed in Committee, one by my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. McAdden) and one by my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) relating to music, dancing and refreshments.

§ Sir J. Duncan
I should like to thank my right hon. Friend for putting in these words. I do not think that they are of very great importance. Nonetheless, I think that it ought to be clear that these betting offices are for racing and not for social purposes. As we are excluding refreshments, music and dancing, I think that these words will confine the betting offices to what they are intended to do and not beyond it.

§ Mr. Vosper
I beg to move, in page 35, line 9, at beginning to insert: Except for the licensee and any servant or agent of his. This is a small point. The Bill as drafted prohibits access to a betting office via any other place of business. That was approved in Committee. Obviously, the staff of the betting office and the proprietor might want to move from his other place of business to the betting office, at the back or the front. As the Bill is now drafted that would be impossible. The Amendment makes it possible for the licensee and any servant or agent of his to pass through another place of work to get to the betting office.