France and Germany (Co-operation)

HC Deb 02 May 1960 vol 622 cc679-82

14. Mr. Warbey

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on his discussions in Paris and Bonn regarding the joint development and production of military missiles and aircraft.

15. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Minister of Aviation what part will be played by other Commonwealth countries in the joint aeronautical projects he has arranged with France and the Federal German Republic.

17. Mr. Rankin

asked the Minister of Aviation what agreements have been reached with the French and German Governments with regard to developments in the aircraft industry; and if he will make a statement.

18. Mr. Chetwynd

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on his recent official visit to France and Germany.

Mr. Sandys

During the Easter Recess I visited France and Germany and had talks with the French and German Ministers concerned about co-operation in development and production in the field of aviation. It was agreed in principle that we should develop together a vertical take-off aircraft to meet the needs of N.A.T.O. Forces and the electronic system required for the air defence of Europe. I am convening early meetings of experts of the three countries to work out a scheme for implementing these decisions. We shall, of course, welcome the participation of any other N.A.T.O. or Commonwealth countries, who may require these equipments.

I also took the opportunity to inform the French and German Governments that if we decided to continue the development of Blue Streak for launching satellites, we had it in mind to invite other European and Commonwealth countries to participate in a joint space programme. Both in Paris and in Bonn, I found considerable interest in this idea.

Mr. Warbey

In addition to the information the right hon. Gentleman has given to the House, can he say whether he also had discussions in Bonn about the joint production and development of military missiles, as was reported in the Press, and in furtherance of discussions which previously had taken place between the Minister of Defence and the German Minister of Defence? Will the right hon. Gentleman report to the House on that, and say whether or not these missiles are within the limits laid down in the revised Brussels Treaty?

Mr. Sandys

The talks which had been going on and off for quite a long time between ourselves and other N.A.T.O. Governments were continued, but there were no specific decisions which I have to announce on that subject. As far as treaty limitations are concerned, no one has had it in mind, I am sure, to do anything which would infringe the terms of the Brussels Treaty.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Will my right hon. Friend do everything possible to make the fullest use of the capacities and facilities of other Commonwealth countries? Will he assure me that there is no significance in his putting "Commonwealth" after "N.A.T.O." in the statement which he made in answer to these Questions?

Mr. Sandys

There is just this significance—that these two projects are being designed specifically to meet a N.A.TO. requirement, and it is not very likely that Commonwealth countries outside N.A.TO. will be interested in these particular projects.

Mr. Rankin

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's answer to the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey), may I ask whether he will keep in mind that if he does entertain the idea of entering into a joint missile project with Germany or with France, it will create the greatest possible resentment in this country?

Mr. Sandys

I do not believe that it would among people who understand the problem. The problem of aircraft manufacture today really is the high cost of development and the limited volume of orders. Therefore, cooperation with other countries reduces the number of competitors and enables our industry to share in an assured market.

Mr. Chetwynd

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that whilst we welcome the joint action under N.A.T.O. and also the joint space programme, we should like him to make quite clear that he is not contemplating any bilateral agreement with Germany on missiles? If he is, will he come to the House with the agreement before he operates it? What is the relationship between this country and France over the production of supersonic aircraft?

Mr. Sandys

On the first point, it was made quite clear in the communiqué issued at the end of my talks in Paris and Germany that all these projects which we were discussing were projects which were open to participation by other N.A.T.O. countries. As for supersonic airliners, I discussed this matter in general terms with the French Minister of Transport and we agreed that it was a good thing for firms in both countries to examine this problem together, but no decisions from Governments are required at this stage. The issue did not arise in my talks with the German Government. As far as I know, the German Government have not yet considered supporting a project of this kind.

Mr. McMaster

In view of the success of Short Bros, and Harland in the difficult and revolutionary research in con- nection with vertical take-off, may I aske whether my right hon. Friend will give an assurance that they will be invited to collaborate in any joint research programme in this new field of vertical take-off with the German and French Governments?

Mr. Sandys

I have already said that I think that the achievement of the Short aircraft is a very considerable one in this field, and of course there can be no question of excluding Short Bros, and Harland from any joint industrial discussions on the question of vertical take-off aircraft.

Mr. Strauss

Can the Minister say, in view of what he said about the possible co-operation with the French for a supersonic airliner, how that is possible in view of the tie-up with Sud-Aviation and Douglas in America for the development of a supersonic new version of the Caravelle? How can Britain come into that? Can he give us any information on that?

Mr. Sandys

I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman is not mixing up the more advanced type of the subsonic Caravelle with the possibility of a supersonic aircraft. In any case, the difference between our manufacturers and the French manufacturers on this subject is that the French are at the moment inclined to favour the development of a medium-range supersonic airliner and our manufacturers are inclined to think that it would be more economic to go for a long-range supersonic aircraft. That does not mean that they are not continuing to discuss this matter together.