Vote 2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy (Hansard, 10 March 1960)

§ Miss Vickers
I had an opportunity of mentioning in our earlier debate the question of the Admiralty constabulary, and now I would like to have an assurance from my hon. Friend that he will look after the victualling yards. The men in those yards render a great service to the country. They are practically all ex-Navy men or ex-Royal Marines, and I hope they will receive equal consideration and that their age range will not be levelled down. It is difficult for them to retire at 63 and to have to wait for retirement pension until the age of 65, so I hope we can be assured that their services will be required and that the age range will not be reduced.
These provisions are under Subheads G and H. Why has there been a decrease of nearly £500,000 in provisions and victualling allowances? It is extremely important that the Royal Navy should be well fed. I am interested in the fact that apparently the officers and men are to have more implements with which to cook their 712 provisions but are to have less provisions to cook. We read this under paragraph G(2): The victualling allowances paid to messes which are not victualled on the general mess system. The rates of these allowances vary according to the costs of victualling on the several stations on which the officers and men are serving, and they are revised from time to time in relation to fluctuations in prices of foodstuffs. Doing housekeeping myself, I can appreciate that it must be extremely difficult for the mess officer when he is trying to make arrangements, and nothing is more important than to have good food when serving in the Navy. I have been on the big ships, such as H.M.S. "Ark Royal", where the equipment and the food is excellent, but I cannot say the same about the smaller ships and some of the messes. Anything my hon. Friend can do to get better allowances for provisions will therefore be much appreciated.

§ Mr. H. Hynd (Accrington)
I want to ask a question which I think I can get in under the heading "Salaries and allowances", because we are referred to Vote 12, where they are explained and there we find various departments mentioned. My point concerns the higher ranks. I have never been able to understand why so many high ranks are required in the Navy. Last December I asked a Question about the number of admirals and I was told that there were eighty-six plus Admirals of the Fleet.
There are all these victualling departments and stores in the Admiralty and I am getting the impression that people are being upgraded in all the different departments to the rank of admiral and that this is destroying the original idea of admirals. There may be a desire to encourage people to stay in the Navy by dangling this rank before them, but I think it is being overdone. Would the Minister direct his attention to this point and perhaps tell us that since my Question was asked in December the number has been reduced, it may be by bringing civilians into some of the departments, or in some other way, so as to reduce the number of admirals?

§ The Temporary Chairman (Commander Donaldson)
Order. The hon. Member is going rather wide. In this 713 Vote we are referring to salaries and allowances which are, in the main, civilian and they cannot be compared with allowances to admirals. I ask the hon. Member to confine his remarks to the Vote under discussion.

§ Mr. Hynd
Thank you, Commander Donaldson, I have made my point.

§ Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing
I am not sure that I can answer the hon. Gentleman since his question was out of order.
The hon. Lady asked about victualling allowances. There is no question of our lowering the standard of feeding in the Royal Navy. The principal reason for the reduction is that we have been supplying some places from Malta for Army and R.A.F. units. This arrangement has come to an end. In some places, for instance in North Africa and Libya, the Army preferred to take over its own feeding arrangements, and therefore victualling does not pass through our hands any more. It will be noted, if the hon. Lady looks at the decrease in the appropriations in aid under Subhead Z, that we are receiving £895,000 less. That shows that we are not getting back any money for services which we previously rendered to the Army and the Air Force.
I note the point which my hon. Friend made about big ship feeding. It is generally acknowledged that small ships, perhaps to a much greater extent, do suffer in the standard of cooking and serving they can offer, particularly in the number of choices, to their companies. We are looking at this matter and I will bear what she said in mind. I am not in a position to give a positive answer on constabulary in victualling yards. I did undertake to write, and I shall keep that promise.
My hon. Friend also raised the question of mess traps, and the reason there is that we have been living on our stock. We were running down stock last year, but we have now come to the level when we cannot go on living on it and we have had to order new mess traps. That is why that estimate has gone up from £41,000 to £77,000.
I suppose that the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) was concerned with clothing for admirals under this Vote. We are looking carefully at this position. There were 114 admirals at one time and they are being run down 714 fairly fast. I have no doubt that this will continue, although the number will not go down as much as it did in the last five years, because we are now approaching the size of the Navy we shall eventually have, about 100,000. There will, therefore, not be so much reduction as in the last five years.

§ Commander J. S. Kerans (The Hartlepools)
I see that there is an increase of some £308,000 for victualling store issuing ships. How many of these ships have we in the Fleet? Is this the cost of maintenance or operating? These ships are a very essential function in our fleet train, and the fact that an increase has been granted is all to the good.

§ Mr. Orr-Ewing
We have two combined naval store and issuing victualling ships, one in the Mediterranean and the other in the Far East. Next year we shall have, in addition, a combined air store and victualling ship. This will eventually be fitted out for Far Eastern operation. That is the explanation for the increase under that heading.